John L Sullivan Vs John Ruiz

I am standing in the kitchen but I may go sit down in the living room.

 

It is a difficult question, because we know exactly what John Ruiz was, but all we know about Sullivan is his dimensions, the stance he fought from, and his approximate style.

Not an easy pick to make.

Given the limited evidence available, I would end up picking Sullivan, because he appears to be a class or three above in terms of resume.

 

Who did Sullivan beat that was better than Holyfield, Golota or Rahman?

 

Well if its a prime Sullivan we could be looking at a Tua type ko .The older drunken one gets dragged round the ring and loses by points .

 

sully ko very late, ruiz is built for him to take apart on the inside during clinchfests, as long as he adheres to the rules. my fear is that today sully gets DQed for doing something outlawed now.

back in the 19th century, sully quickly gets the ko.

 

if u dont stand for something you'll fall for anything.

 

That is the problem.

We don't know how good his opposition were, except loosely relative to the era.

We can certainly say that Sullivan was far more successful in his era, than Ruiz was in his however.

 

That we can. I would contend that when Sullivan was on top there was no greater gap between the champion and his contenders than any other era.

That said, if we are going to have these guys face off in the ring, they don't get to swing their resumes at each other.

 

Ruiz "by a country mile". The guys he fought were infinitely bigger and better. He pretty much beat the giant Valuev.

 

No, but that is literally the only evidence we have in this case!

 

I know you like this argument for the sake of debate but I question if you are serious. You can start to gage how good a fighter was by examining their overall record and quality of opposition. Sullivan did not defeat one single fighter of any established merit whatsoever in his entire career under Q of A while Ruiz fought the best professionals of an era. Here's what we do know: 90% of Sullivan's opponents belonged fighting in tough man competitions opposed to professional titles. They were rank amateurs that had far less experience than the average Golden Glove boxer today. Ruiz defeated Tony Tucker, Evander Holyfield, Andrew Golota, Hasim Rahman and Kirk Johnson. You can make any broad based claim you like but this is one of the least supported positions based on fact I have seen posted with consistency on this Board which says a lot ..

 

Sullivan didn't "pretty much beat", the contenders of his era.

He dominated them.

 

So did Butterbean. Who were the three most accomplished heavyweights Sullivan defeated at heavyweight under Q of A ?

 

That is literally the only frame of reference that we have in this case.

If we were talking about somebody like Rocky Marciano, then you could break down his opponents, and find their flaws.

In this case, we simply don't know anything much, beyond how good they were relative to the era.

Here I have to disagree.

Sullivan beat the best Queensbury fighters of his era, indeed dominated them.

Ruiz beat some name fighters, who were not the best and brightest at the time, and in some cases got gifts.

Some have argued that Ruiz hold's a false resume.

This is not what "we know".

It is what "you assume", without a shred of evidence to support it.

Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.