Sullivan fight of the week Goss vs Sullivan

Interesting to see how under your skin I've gotten when all I'm asking for are facts ..

So correct me if I'm wrong but your first pick was a 42 year old bareknuckle middleweight who John L. fought in an exhibition. I thank you for posting it and look forward to your next breakthrough in defining the top M of Q opponents Sullivan defeated. Why wait ?

 

These are the guys you are talking about. Prime physical specimens.
GTFOH with this stuff. They look like technical support guys for Sprint.

http://atemicast.blogspot.com/2013/06/paddy-ryan-vs-joe-goss-1880.html

 

Hard to say but it wasn't when they were old men. There are worse looking photos of those two.

Here, though, a young Sullivan looks very fit.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/blog/?p=16425

 

Well I think Goss was brilliant in his prime, but well past his best.

He still put up a really good fight against Ryan. I think he was winning early but faded.

 

Interesting stuff Janitor. In the past, I have questioned Sullivan's opposition, but I'll keep an open mind. I'll be following this thread to learn new things.

I do not think this was a significant win for Sullivan, but the 42-year-old Goss, had a name, so it served a purpose for Sullivan.

IMO the best gloved fighters Sullivan faced were:

1 ) Jim Corbett by a country mile over the below men:

2 ) Charlie Mitchell. 15-0-2. KO 3 win for Sullivan. The only thing is Mitchell was much smaller and managed to floor Sullivan. Corbett butchered the same Mitchell in three rounds in a title defense. At least we know Mitchell was in the ring with some name guys so his record holds up as he fought good quality men.

3 ) Patsy Cardiff. 22-0-6. Cardiff's record was good, and Sullivan was 28 years old in this fight, which ended a draw. Sullivan had an estimated 30-pound advantage. Later, Cardiff, was Ko'd by Pat Killen. Killen was a big man for the times 6'1" 1/2 with a big punch ( 85% of his fights ended in a KO ). Sullivan could have fought him, but didn't, and if he did, I think Killen defeats Sullivan from 1886 and beyond. Killen died in 1891 at age 29. Outside of Corbett, Killen would likely rate as John L. 2nd best opponent.

Killen's record http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/40331

4 ) Jack Burke 20-3-2. Burke was tiny, just 5'6 1/2. Sullivan was fat for this fight, and had an estimated 60-pound weight advantage, and failed to finish Burke but floored him and won in 5 rounds.

5 ) Dominick McCaffery 7-2-3. A spotty, but winning record. 1885-08-29: John L. Sullivan 208 lbs beat Dominick McCaffrey 167½ lbs by PTS in round 7 of 6. Another match vs. a smaller man that went the distance.

My on-paper conclusion: Sullivan despite being the much bigger man in all of the above matches, and did not enhance his legacy much, outside of the Mitchel fight. The other best #3, #4, and #5 fighters that I recognize all went the distance.

With power being the last thing to go, and not one of #2-#5 of being very durable, you have to questions Sullivan's skills to land punches, and to a reasonable extent wonder just how hard he hit.

A theory is Sullivan might have been a much better London Prize Ring / bare knuckle fighter, than Queensberry boxer. Boxing back then was something like back and forth stuff the way a fencing match looks today mixed in with a lot of clinching and little defense as we know it. As soon as gloves and mobility came around, Sullivan failed to land the big punch.

 

Folks need to stop quoting Boxrec records in this discussion. They are woefully inadequate.

 

No offense but nearly everything you said is wrong or misleading.

Like Seamus said, stopping looking at Boxrec, it's totally incomplete, try and fight first hand accounts of fights from this period if you want to find out why.

This idea that gloves, thin, hard, light 1800's gloves will change that much, is just silly. Nearly every fighteer back then fough varying degrees of both bareknuckle and gloved. Plus Sullivan was in his prime in his early 20's, often ballooned in weight and drank heavy, meant he was done at a young age. You're focusing on fights from when he was pretty shot, and one of which he had a broken arm.

 

The Paddy Ryan photo is from 1887. I can't find when the Goss photo is from