If Patterson had faced Cleveland Williams instead of Liston?

But, but, but 53 000 Mac!!!!! Can one imagine the odds against Machen in such a crowded one sides environment?

 

Exactly.

 

Insurmountable!
What always strikes me about this fight is the number of times Ingo landed his "toonder".
With Machen trapped in a corner and the referee having a day off, Johannson hits him with everything but the kitchen sink before he gets the stoppage.

 

You two are incredible. You are now talking yourselves into believing Machen was robbed in front of 53,000 swedes!

It was a legit win. A legit world title eliminator. And a legit result.


There is absolutely nothing to compare it with on Cleveland Williams record. He drew with Machen. Where as Ingo absolutely pounded Machen out.

 

Who implied ,inferred, indicated,it wasn't a legitimate win? Wake up pal!

 

I'm hearin' ya!!! Wild event - in front of 53000 peeps.

I need to reshuffle my ATG Heavyweight ranking according to "single biggest crowd fought in front of".

 

I should think these are the type of comment that undermines the achievement of Ingo Johansson. A champion whom beat Patterson before Liston did, but somehow earns less credibility for it.

Have a read of these tidbits.

One sided environment? Odds stacked? Couldn’t this be perceived as Machen being disadvantaged?

Machen trapped, refs having a day off? This also sounds like Ingo being served the upper hand...

more focus on the stadium sized crowd having a baring on Ingos supposed advantage..

 

Do you honestly think the referee did a good job? It was criminal the way he let that go on. Stop whingeing for ****'s sake!

 

The referee was about as inept as Arthur Mercante was in the Cooney v Norton fight. Or whomever allowed Mercer to tee off on Tommy Morrison’s head. Not good.

I cannot say the referee prevented Machen from winning any more in that case than other referees prevented Norton or Morrison from winning when they were trapped in similar situations.

Bad job yes. Preventing a different outcomte? No.

 

You are arguing point that hasn't been contested.I don't know where the **** you are coming from!

 

Machen vs Ingo, was like Norton vs C00ney or Norton vs Shavers. At least in Foster v MQuarry, Bob always said: "Man, I thought I had killed the kid" (Bob's one-punch devastation).

 

Yes, Ingo really creamed Machen.

Williams could not beat Machen..

 

I don't find the "he was unranked" when X fought him argument all that convincing. I think the overall career is what we should look at.

For example, Max Baer wasn't in the annual rankings in 1936 and 1937. Assuming he wasn't in some monthly rankings I don't have access to, does this mean we dismiss Tommy Farr's win over Baer as just beating an "unranked" fighter? Seems a distortion to me.

In Johansson's case, The Ring annual rankings in the year he won the title listed Patterson at #2, Cooper at #4, Machen at #5, and Erskine at #9. Obviously he had beaten quite a few guys who could get into the top ten.

I would note that Bygraves, Erskine, and Cooper were British Empire champions. Ten Hoff, Neuhaus, and Cavicchi were European champions. Ten Hoff, Neuhaus, Cavicchi, Erskine, Cooper, and Machen were rated top ten at one point or another (I would not be surprised if Bygraves had also been in the monthly ratings at some point).

That really isn't that bad as a list of victims for a contender. Also, this list is all heavyweights.

How many rated or ever rated contenders did Patterson beat on his way to the title? How many were rated at heavyweight?

 

I don't agree with the criticism of Johansson for not fighting a rematch with Machen. I think it really unfair.

What happened is that the IBC coerced Johansson's rep, promoter Alquist, to sign a rematch agreement shortly before the Machen-Johansson fight, on the threat that Machen would pull out of the fight.

The IBC took it to court but lost as the judge ruled that no one can be coerced into giving up his rights and Johansson had the right to pursue his career in his own interests. Certainly his interest was served by accepting a championship shot rather than fight a rematch with a man he had KO'd in one round.

Should Dempsey have given Fulton a rematch before taking on Willard? Should Baer have given Schmeling a rematch before taking on Carnera?

*For those who might not know, The IBC was a corrupt monopoly which ran American boxing from the late 1940's into the early 1960's. It was fronted by wealthy "sportsman" Jim Norris, but actually run by gangsters Bernie Carbo and Blinky Palermo. I find it surprising that anyone would support the IBC position on this goofy Machen deserved a rematch argument. A Senate and FBI investigation eventually brought the IBC down and sent their top dogs to the hoosegow.

 

Just on the relative levels of American and Euro heavyweights in the late 1950's, here is the 1957 rankings and some results when matched with Europeans over the next 3-4 years:

Champion----Floyd Patterson (KO'd by Johansson)
1----Eddie Machen (KO'd by Johansson)
2----Zora Folley (lost decision to Cooper)
3----Willie Pastrano (stopped by London, outpointed by Erskine)
4----Roy Harris (outpointed by Cooper)
5----Pat McMurtry (outpointed by Willi Besmanoff)
6----Nino Valdes*
7----Mike DeJohn (outpointed by Besmanoff)
8----Wayne Bethea (outpointed by Cooper and Mildenberger)
9----Alex Miteff (stopped by Besmanoff, outpointed by Cooper)
10---Ingemar Johansson

*Valdes dominated the Euros he fought.

**And there were many win and lose situations. Folley, for example, later KO'd Cooper, and Patterson later KO'd Johansson twice.

But I would draw from this that the Europeans and Americans were rather well-matched. Starting in 1958, Sonny Liston came into the picture, and I am certain he would have dominated the Europeans, but he also dominated the Americans, as did Ali when he appeared on the scene. Strong heavyweight champions do tend to stand out among all available competition.