If Patterson had faced Cleveland Williams instead of Liston?

Miteff was Argentinian.

 

Absolutely true.

 

Apart from the actual champions the European heavyweights were every bit as good as anyone else on the contender circuit.

 

True. But he was active in the US and most of his career was there,

but I yield to your point.

*Just an aside, being from the United States, and dealing with those from Latin America often, they tend to view us gringos as extremely arrogant to "own" the term American for ourselves, when they are part of America also. But I guess a British person taking the same line shows the degree to which US "pushiness" has defined such things. It is sort of like the British owning the term "European" and somehow a Frenchman or Italian was not really European but only French or Italian.
But this is just an aside comment and not something I am interested in debating.

 

Nor me, just being a pedant.

 

Cooper,London,Erskine, Neuhaus,were not as good as the best US contenders.

 

They were not as good as the champions and neither were Roy Harris or Mike DeJohn or Tony Alongi or James J Parker or George Chuvalo, willie Pastrano, or Tommy Jackson as good as the champions.

Machen and Folley lost to plenty of Europeans between them too.

 

Machen and Folley lost 5 fights to Europeans between them,that is in a total of 160 fights.

 

I think very misleading stats.

Machen fought four fights against Europeans. He defeated Besmanoff and London. He lost to Johansson and Mildenberger. He was 2 wins, 2 losses.

Folley fought 8 fights with Europeans. He defeated Besmanoff twice, Cooper, Bygraves, and Zech. He lost to Cooper and London. He drew with Mildenberger. He was 5 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw.

So together Machen and Folley went 7-4-1 against Euro opposition. Considering they were top contenders and some of their opposition, like Besmanoff, were more like trial horses, it really isn't all that impressive.

I don't think 160 fights total has much to do with it when so few were against Europeans.

*I consider Bygraves European as his career was mainly fighting in Europe, although born in the New World.

Against the actual top Europeans, Johansson, Mildenberger, and Cooper--Folley and Machen were 1-3-1.

 

That’s not a good ratio is it? Seems like Cooper, mildenberger and Johansson did rather well against Folley and Machen.

 

You supply stats and they prove what? I supply them and they are "misleading"lol.

Choklab said ,"Machen and Folley lost to plenty of Europeans ."I proved they didn't.5 out of 160 is not plenty!

 

UOTE="choklab, post: 19040958, member: 50845"]That’s not a good ratio is it? Seems like Cooper, mildenberger and Johansson did rather well against Folley and Machen.[/QUOTE]
Machen had not been ranked for 2 years when he fought Mildenberger.
Cooper was floored by Folley in their first fight ,Folley then forgot his gameplan and went right hand happy trying to ko him.In the rematch Folley took Cooper out in 2 rds.


Other than his ko of Floyd in their initial fight, Johannson has one win at really top level , his ko of Machen.


Mildenberger fought US second raters and fringe contenders for the most part.Folley was finished after the Ali fight ,in fact he was basically through before it! Karl managed a draw in Germany , which is widely seen as a robbery, as was his win over journeyman Dave Bailey.


Cooper feasted on fringe Americans,some of whom Amos Johnson and Roger Rischer beat him ,apart from his win over Folley, [which was emphatically reversed] when Henry stepped up in class he lost.

 

1-3-1 is still the official record Machen and Folley have against the top Euros. Machen and Folley did lose to plenty of Europeans didn’t they? If they fought 5 Europeans between them and lost 5 times it’s not really proving the kind of superiority that you would want is it?

I think Machen won Just one of four fights in Europe. He lost to Ingo in Sweden and he lost to Mildenburger in Germany and he lost to Patterson in Sweden. He had a nightmare in Europe. Losing 75% of the time he was in Europe. Losing 66% of the time with Europeans.

Folley lost to Henry Cooper, Brian London and he did not beat Mildenburger. He beat Zech. He beat Cooper and Bygraves. That’s a 50-50 record in Europe.

A 33% ratio and 50% ratio is not a superiority over Europeans.

 

Cooper, Erskine, and Mildenberger were as good as prime versions of Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell?
Who on their records indicates this is the case?

 

The record as it stands is the record as it stands.

Folley was 1-1 with Cooper and 0-1 with Brian London. He drew with Mildenberger.

Machen beat London but he lost to both Johansson and mildenburger.

Ernie Terrell never fought a European.