Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

Joe Louis for me. 25 Title defenses unmatched in any division. In an era with only one belt boulder. Never lost a rematch (neither did Ali) and totally demolished the opposition in the rematch. Something Ali can’t claim as many believe Norton edged him and Frazier always gave him hell.
Both lost years of their prime for different reasons.
Ali fought better fighters but for all the fuss made about the fight of the century - the truly transcendent fight in the division’s history is Joe’s rematch with Schmeling. The entire world was watching the pressure on Louis to win that match is almost impossible to fathom. And he came out and destroyed Schmeling in 1 round.

Their are cases that can be made for either man. I believe it’s splitting hairs but I go with Louis.

 

Are you kidding me? Ali would have run rings around Carnera and Baer, they were tailor made for him. Schmeling would give him more trouble but Ali's speed would be too much for Max.

 

hard to rate heavyweights. Weight makes such a big factor.. Big guys fighting little guys. It is easier to match guys fighting and weighing in at the same weights.

 

I'm not buying what you are trying to sell regardless of how you dress it up.

You are trying to convey Louis taking on Schmeling was seen as some sort of enormous risk at the time which is simply untrue. Louis was 10-1 on to win and many already viewed him as invincible. Max was seen (by almost everyone) as a formality before Louis fulfilled his championship destiny. Many also believed Max to be on the decline.

By contrast Clay was a massive 7-1 underdog going into the Liston fight. 43 out of 46 sportswriters picked Liston by KO.

In the real world Joe wasn't thought to be throwing himself into the danger zone whatsoever. Hindsight can't change that.

 

"I talk to the treeeees..."

 

Then why couldn't Ali run rings around Sonny Banks and Doug Jones? Why was he getting put on his ass by Henry Cooper? Are you saying that Banks, Jones, and Cooper could do things that Carnera, Baer, and Schmeling couldn't?

I feel like your expectation of Ali at this time does not match reality. He was still green. I couldn't imagine a post-Liston Ali having any trouble with Banks, Jones, or Cooper.

 

Schmeling wasn't seen as an enormous risk because Louis annihilated everyone in front of him up to that point including 2 former world heavyweight champs. Baer wasn't just a formality. Plenty of people were backing him by knockout. Louis was taking out tons of top 10 fighters and he took out former heavyweight champ Primo Carnera leading up to the Baer bout.

What Janitor and I are saying (at least what I'm concluding from his posts) is Louis was moved along and put in with far more dangerous fighters at a faster rate than Ali was. You can't really go off the number of fights. Length of time is what you want to look at. A fighter takes time and ring experience to develop but mostly time. Simply put Ali didn't fight anything close to Louis' schedule and wouldn't have been able to.

Imagine Ali being put in with Ingo in his 11th month as a pro. Being put in with Patterson after 14 months.

I don't think Ali would pass either of those tests. He wasn't superman.

 

It's called speed my friend, none of those were as fast as Cooper, Jones or Banks.

 

H2h. Top 5.

1.Lennox Lewis
2.Mike Tyson
3.Larry Holmes
4.Muhammed Ali
5.Evander Holyfield

 

Are you kidding me? That's a joke right? Cooper, Banks, and Jones were not fast. By any standard. Whatsoever.

Schmeling, Baer, and Carnera were better fighters in every respect.

 

Larry Holmes would beat Ali head to head?

The problem with rating fighters h2h is fighter A beat fighter B who beat fighter C who beat fighter A.

 

They were faster than the list you gave me, and yes they did have speed. Cooper was giving Ali big trouble before he knocked him down.

Ali would have run rings around those fighters without a doubt.

 

top 5

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holyfield
Marciano

h2h top 5

Vitali
Wlad
Foreman
Tyson
Lewis

 

Do you realize you're saying that 3 journeymen would be harder for Ali than 3 heavyweight champions?

No. They weren't faster than Baer and Schmeling. Carnera sure but nor Baer and Schmeling. Either way, they weren't fast by any definition of the word. They were average at best. Their speed wasn't a factor. Sonny Banks was a converted southpaw who caught Ali with a left hook. A punch Ali was susceptible to. Henry Cooper was tough and had a wicked left hook. Caught Ali with it. Baer was a better fighter, hit better too. Doug Jones caught a green Ali and took advantage of his lack of fundamentals. He just stepped forward and threw a right hand. That's Schmeling's best punch and Schmeling is better than Jones in every way. Skill, speed, chin, power, IQ, everything.

Trade Cooper for Baer, trade Jones for Schmeling, trade Banks for Carnera. Ali loses to Schmeling at the very least. Probably all 3.

 

You make some valid points.

Be that as it may, we can't simply overlook the fact that Louis had been fighting professionally for less than two years, when he came up against Max Schmeling.

If you match tow fighters against the same opponents in the same order, but do it with fighter A over two years, and fighter B over one year, you are not matching them equally.

Also if we are not factoring in the assumed superiority of Ali's era, then we would have to regard Schmeling as being as good as Frazier, and somewhat better than Norton.