Teach me about Sonny Liston.

There isn't much room for that, unless you actually kill him!

 

I will see if I can find the verbatim info again.

You are probably right about the Cleveland Williams fight.
Will continue look....maybe in Houston papers post Liston fights.

 

From Wiki (whether good or bad info):

"Two days after the fight, heavyweight contender Eddie Machen said he believed that Liston's handlers made deliberate use of illegal medication to temporarily blind Clay. "The same thing happened to me when I fought Liston in 1960," Machen said. "I thought my eyes would burn out of my head, and Liston seemed to know it would happen." He theorized that Liston's handlers would rub medication on his shoulders, which would then be transferred to his opponent's forehead during clinches and drip into the eyes. "Clay did the worst thing when he started screaming and let Liston know it had worked," Machen said. "Clay panicked. I didn't do that. I'm more of a seasoned pro, and I hid it from Liston." [27]
"Machen Backs Clay's 'Liniment' Complaint". Sarasota Journal. February 28, 1964.

 

If Machen got it as bad as he claims there's no way possible he could hide it from Liston. I'm wondering if anything was ever said prior to the Liston - Ali claims.

I'm wondering how the whole alleged charade worked. I don't recall many clinches with Clay and he certainly wasn't landing much so lacing his gloves may have been futile. No matter how you did it surely there'd be a chance Liston would get it in his own eyes.

Something happened tho so i might watch it again sometime and scrutinize the lead up.

 

The Missing Fight Film (Liston vs Folley)

No mention of possible burning eyes here, but good description of fight:
'Asked what it felt like to be hit by Liston, Folley paused and said, “I can’t describe it. You would have to experience if for yourself…” '

"This may have been the finest three-round fight in history, second only to Hagler-Hearns."
http://www.boxing.com/the_missing_fight_film.html

 

Just stories from the olden days....who really knows what really happened.
But remember the prime Promoter in Clay vs Liston I, was a promoter in Miami professional wrestling too.

 

Burt Sugar taped this statement on ESPN or HBO (?)
"Bert Sugar said that Sonny Liston purposely had his corner rub linament on his gloves when he was in trouble so he could temporarily blind his opponents...He specifically mentions the Machen, Folley, and Clay (Ali) fights...
" per Box R#c."
Note: I don't support Burt Sugar for any reason.

 

Good Sports Illus. article on Liston.
Describes Liston the fighter.
https://www.si.com/boxing/2014/08/22/o-unlucky-man-sonny-liston-william-nack-si-60
"Liston did not sidestep his way to the title; the pirouette was not among his moves. He reached Patterson by walking through the entire heavyweight division, leaving large bodies sprawled behind him: Wayne Bethea, Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Zora Folley et al. Finally, a terrified Patterson waited for him, already fumbling with his getaway disguise, dark glasses and a beard."

Another good article:
http://fightnetwork.com/news/6381406:ali-vs-liston-2-what-really-happened/
"Liston genuinely believed he was going to KO Clay in a single round in Fight #1. Liston often said during training camp leading up to the fight, “I don’t know why I am training so hard for this punk kid. I am going to kill him in one round.” Liston was promised $1.2 million dollars for his title defense against Cassius Clay."

 

They don't need to kill him to improve the result of Liston

 

I'm aware of the accusations concerning the Machen and Ali fights. I asked about the Williams and Folley fights.
As far as I am aware neither ever mentioned any burning eye issues against Liston,just unconscious ones.

 

Absurd.

 

Bert Sugar said a lot of things ,very, very few of them can be verified ,a colourful storyteller, but never a reliable source for anecdotal evidence.

 

Bert never let reality get in the way of a good yarn, a very entertaining raconteur but a pretty ordinary judge of fighters in my opinion.

I actually rate Marciano p4p as a cruiserweight a lot higher than I would rate him head to head at heavyweight. He would be an absolute handful over 15 rounds for anyone who weighed under 200 pounds.

Cheers All

 

Very ,very few under 190lbs fighters should be given a reasonable chance with him,imo.Dempsey,Langford,maybe Fitz.

 

You could not say anything but you are mad so you had to throw any ****