Sullivan fight of the week Sullivan McCormick

It was made illegal afterwards as I said when I stated it was then outlawed.

 

I thought it was more ambiguous, then it was decided after that it was illegal, rather than ever really being allowed. I may be wrong though., have you got a source?

 

I think it is the only sensible position.

Those articles i dug up on Lafflin, for example, say that Lafflin was the betting favourite going into their fight and he was a 200lb plus fighter who had previously beat fomer world champion Joe Coburn and he seems to have been considered the best figher from the new york area (a not too insignificantly sized area) for some years. He was the head trainer of the local area and even seems to have had given Sullivan a run, years earlier, in a 4 rounder. Yet now we are supposed to believe he as a nobody on debut! Quite simply, we do not know just how good his era was (plenty thought it was better than the era that followed). What we do know is that Sullivan completely classed everyone in his era, until he broke his arm. He wasnt always expected to, but he did.

 

Easy there Bit, no need to get hot under the collar. I was merely saying that Lablance could have been a good name on Sullivan's resume in the mid-1880's and they toured with each other. It was a makeable fight. Can we agree on that?

 

No because LaBlanche didn't fight heavyweights.

 

What did that matter to Sullivan, as he mostly beat on middleweight types, some of whom were past their best?

There was no light heavyweight division back then.

Wasn't Ed Denver Smith a heavyweight? The answer is Yes, so your statement that LaBlance didn't fight heavyweights is false.

 

This to breathe a little life into this thread. There were no ratings back then but it is possible to mimic the Ring's year-end ratings, so here goes my effort, starting with 1882. Not that happy with 1882 but feel comfortable with the others. I'll complete during the coming days, for information only, no agenda, and all comments welcome.
1882
1-Sullivan
2-Hadley
3-Godfrey
4-Kilrain
5-C C Smith
6-Grant
7-Mitchell
8-Cleary
9-McCaffrey
10-Eliott
1883
1-Sullivan
2-Mitchell
3-Godfrey
4-Kilrain
5-Cleary
6-Greenfield
7-Hadley
8-Woodson
9-McHenry Johnson
10-Miller
1884
1-Sullivan
2-McCaffrey
3-Kilrain
4-Burke
5-Mitchell
6-Farnan
7-Cleary
8-Godfrey
9-Cardiff
10-Thompson

 

Matt,
I think this really deserves a thread on it own.

Anyway, check out this list from Sullivan of some of he good fighers that he beat. He says he can name another 60 fighters.

http://fultonhistory.com/highlighte...lton%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false

 

I might just do that when I get time!

 

1885
1-Sullivan
2-McCaffrey
3-Burke
4-Mitchell
5-Kilrain
6-Cleary
7-Cardiff
8-Killen
9-Godfrey
10-Lees
1886
1-Sullivan
2-Kilrain
3-Cardiff
4-Mitchell
5-Burke
6-McCaffrey
7-Killen
8-Godfrey
9-Lannon
10-Cleary
1887
1-Sullivan
2-Kilrain
3-Cardiff
4-Killen
5-Mitchell
6-Burke
7-Ashton
8-Godfrey
8-Jackson
10-McAuliffe

 

These early years are virtually impossile to do. Not only because of the lack of information but also because the whole sport was regionalised. Unlike today, it would not be unreasonable for a fighter to simply stay in the one region. Also, there were rarely decisions and records were rarely kept. Most indications and even betting would be an eyeball test which simply isnt accurate, particularly when you cant even look at previous matches. This means it impossible to guage who was or wasnt any good.

Take the Lafflin example i gave. Looking into his career, he seems to have been the head professor at one of the New York schools (similar to Jim Corbett's position), he was obviously in good shape, and he seems to have been the best of the local New York fighters. He seemed to travel and appear with the Jem Mace troupe and most of the troupes that came through New York. Though it does seem that he specialised in putting on an exhibition with the clubs (i dont think these exhibitions involved hitting others with them, but who knows). We also know that he fought or sparred regularly with Mace, Coburn and others of this ilk. Fights and decisions were not allowed in these days in new york so his record is mostly guess though. We do know that he considers at least one of these fights against Coburn as a win. We also know that he was considered the best fighter in New York or one of the best because otherwise there would have been others talked about as challengers and he would not be considerd the betting favourite. I think this alone would have to place him in the top 10 for the year he challenged Sullivan.

The other problem is what to do with the Aussie fighters. Looking at the year you started with, it seems that Larry Foley was the Australian champion. He wasnt too active but he was still the champion and i think it is safe to assume that he had some fights, given that he was still actively sparrring with Jem Mace and Co. I think being champion earns him a place in the top 5 or so. (Some might say it gives him no 1!). Also, Farnan was not meeting the Americans, but he seems to have been starting to gain a reputation, so he could place in the top 10 as well. William Miller is another who was gathering steam around this time by sparring Jem Mace and Co, he was similar to Lafflin in that he sparred with the same guys Lafflin did and presumably he actually sparred with Lafflin as well (would love to know how that one went down). I think i agree with you not putting him in the top 10 but without being there it is hard to know, he may have actually been in that top 10 at the time.

 

The constant appears to be the name at the top!

 

Miller I rated in 83, he got the better of Foley that year but refused to fight Farnan who is rated in 1884 and he then loses to Lees, rated in 1885, Jackson beats him and gets rated in 1886. Foley simply wasn't fighting competitivly in the early '80 as he was probably past his best but as I say I'm not that happy with the 1882 list, your point about Laffin, also maybe Miller should be there, he beat Goss in 1878 but I had to start somewhere!

 

Boilermaker, I've just been reading up on Miller and he certainly should be rated higher, he was perhaps the best gloved fighter in the world around 1880 or so. He bested Goss, Dwyer, Rooke, and Ryan as well as a close loss to Ryan with blackened gloves. He won a slew of other fights and outclassed Foley in 1883.

 

This backs up what I've been saying. Cardiff, Mitchell, and Burke were the best that Sullivan fought in the mid 1880's