Ingo's right hand.

Liston is an odd fighter to hate on. Most haters focus on recent fighters (Wlad, Mayweather) or maybe a fighter with a polarizing personality outside the ring (Ali) or a polarizing record (Marciano undeafeted which can make him both over and underrated). But a Liston hater I thought those all vanished in the 60s lol

 

He does need a psych evaluation

 

Mike DeJohn?

His big KO's were over Miteff, Powell, and Hunter.

I don't think he rates with Ingo, whatever negatives one produces for Ingo. Had Johansson never KO'd Patterson, I still would rate him above DeJohn off his KO of Machen.

 

Lol well he can join the hater club, there are a few guys with unhealthy obsessions of particular fighters on these boards. Ten years with no let up on a rather strange target in Liston that is some endurance.
“Hate keeps a man alive.” - From Ben Hur

 

One thing I find very odd about debates concerning Johansson. Big supporters of Liston are first in line to trash Ingo.

The problem it seems to me is that Liston was fighting at the same time and often against men either Ingo himself beat or were beaten by men Ingo beat--Patterson, Machen, Folley, Harris, DeJohn, Valdes, etc.

So the bottom line for me is if Ingo isn't much, what does this say about Liston? Doesn't it undercut him badly?

On the other hand, the "critic" of Liston is the guy promoting Johansson, which strikes me as indirectly also promoting Liston.

I certainly consider Liston a level above Johansson, but Ingo got to the title by KO'ing the top contender and then the champion. I think his critics underrate him while some of his fans overrate him,

but I come down more on the side of those positive about him.

 

For his size he did hit pretty hard

 

Good post. I agree. Ingo’s wins over Machen and Patterson are clear cut emphatic wins. If you bash Ingo’s resume you undercut a large portion of what defines Liston’s resume. Can’t really have it both ways. So I tend to agree that Ingo is somewhat underrated and while I would make Liston a solid favorite over Ingo, I wouldn’t be dismissive of Ingo as some sort of fluke also ran that doesn’t deserve to be in same ring as Sonny.

 

I will elaborate on what I said on another post. Why is giving Johansson credit trashing Liston? It seems to me it is the opposite. Most of Liston's big wins were over men either Ingo KO'd himself or who were beaten by men Ingo KO'd--Machen and Cooper. (Patterson, Machen, Folley, Harris, Valdes, DeJohn, Bethea, etc.)

Williams would be the only exception, drawing with Machen. In fairness, I think Williams is a weak reed on which to build an ATG rep on.

Now I certainly think Liston was better and would beat Ingo,

but your running Ingo down doesn't really make a great deal of sense to me as a defense of Liston.

If Ingo was nothing, Liston has a resume built on beating guys who were either beaten themselves or beaten by someone beaten by this nothing.

 

Liston beat several world class contenders in his quest for the title.Ingo beat who? Machen.

 

Boxing is no different than any other sport, it's just as much mental as it is physical... It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what he thinks .. and if he doesn't have the confidence to get in the ring with Liston, then that tells you right there that "he" thinks he has no chance against Liston ... You get into the ring without confidence, you get taken out quick.

 

Liston obliterated a guy twice in a few minutes that belted out a series win vs Ingo.

 

How many guys ranked in the top five when he fought them did Liston actually beat on his way up? I think only Machen and Folley.

The Boxing Register lists five rated Liston heavyweight victims prior to his championship shot (Bethea, DeJohn, Harris, Folley, Machen)

Henry Cooper ended up with un-avenged wins over Harris and Bethea, and also beat Folley in their first match.

Other than Machen and Folley, how good were these guys?

I rate Liston above Ingo, but also Liston is the guy who gets ATG credit, not Ingo. He should be a lot more impressive, and is in fact somewhat more impressive.

This post seems merely to argue that Liston is better than Johansson, which I don't dispute. But Machen was the #1 contender when Johansson beat him, and undefeated, so the point seems obscure to me.

Just an aside--how many top rated heavyweights had Patterson beaten before fighting for the title?

 

A good argument for Liston being better than Johansson. Not much of an argument for Johansson being mediocre, though, unless you are arguing that Patterson wasn't much either, in which case what does Liston dominating him really prove?