Ingo's right hand.

It is as good a right hand as anybody has ever had in my opinion.

What do you think got Johansen as far as he got?

I will give you three guesses!

 

Old Fogey,

I know you’ve always been highly on Ingo but if you’ve read chokelabs arguements, you would see he is extremely biased in regards to Johansson and nitpicks with Liston.

You bring up Ingos big victories over Machen and Patterson. What about his 2 knockout losses to Patterson? He went 1-2 vs patterson...a man Liston twice made look like a little boy getting beat up by his big brother.

The truth about Ingo is he was a one trick pony with a lot of weaknesses. He was very clever. He sandbagged the media into thinking he was another overhyped Euro, and conned Machen and Patterson into taking him lightly. He never gave Machen the rematch. He did with Patterson and Floyd put his lights out.

Johansson was not a great fighter. His resume is very thin, his chin is very untested, and he did not prove himself vs a wide variety of styles. His management steered him away from the divisions big punchers (Liston Valdes Williams Dejohn)...that’s for sure. A fat retired 36 year old Rocky Marciano thought lowly enough of Ingo to contemplate coming out of retirement to fight him

 

Boxing Register is wrong.

Along with those 5...

Cleveland Williams was ranked # 10 by the NBA going into the rematch in 1960. He was rated number 10 by the NBA at the end of October 1959 and was still there when he faced Liston in 1960.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...QqYKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YEgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5240,135004


Also Henry Clark was ranked # 7 by Ring Magazine and # 5 by NBA entering his fight with Liston.

Amos Johnson was ranked 8th going into his fight with Liston, either NBA or RING, I believe RING. So that’s 3 guys you missed


Also it should be noted

Valdes had suffered a recent defeat to Alonzo Johnson and dropped out of the ratings, but he had been ranked # 6 by Ring Magazine 2 months prior to Liston fight. Johnny Summerlin and Billy Hunter entered the top 10 RING shortly after their losses to Liston.


FYI cooper was given a dubious hometown decision over Foley. In the rematch, Foley destroyed him in 2 rounds.

Coopers manager is on record saying he would never fight Liston out of fear for coopers safety.

 

For Petes sake! I said probably. As in as among the best.

 

I think Edward morbuis has put the whole thing into perspective. I am on the same page. Sonny was better. I’ve said all along after 1961 he beats Ingo. But the gap between the two cannot be so wide even if Ingos career was so short. Both champions were destined not to hold the championship long.

 

If you have a disagreement with what Choklab posts, take that up with Choklab.

As for me,

"You bring up Ingo's big victories over Machen and Patterson."

Why not. They were the #1 contender and champion and the victories made Ingo champion. These KO's are on his resume.

"the divisions big punchers (Liston, Valdes, Williams, DeJohn)"

All of whom fought Machen and none of whom KO'd Machen, though Johansson did. But also Machen KO'd Valdes and DeJohn. I think rating DeJohn as a bigger puncher than Machen is outright silly. Machen fought and KO'd far tougher competition over the years than DeJohn whose only name KO victims are Miteff (8 KO defeats in 39 fights), Powell (8 KO defeats in 39 fights) and Hunter (5 KO defeats in 32 fights). Personally, I not only consider Machen a more dangerous puncher than DeJohn, but Valdes and Williams also. And this doesn't even bring up Patterson.

And speaking of Patterson, if Ingo isn't much, where does this put Floyd, whose big heavyweight wins were the two out of three over Johansson. His other big wins? Jackson? KO'd by Machen. Machen and Cooper? KO'd by Johansson. His rep ends up being reduced to Moore.

Generally, on this board if a guy wants to trash someone, he trashes his opposition. Fitz, Corbett, and Sharkey weren't much, so whom did Jeff really beat? That sort of argument.

This one is unusual in that a guy supporting Liston trashes a man who defeated everyone he fought in the same era, including the one champion Liston ever defeated. Now Johansson KO'ing Patterson and Machen, and Cooper beating Folley, Harris, and Bethea, is no problem if these men were pretty good, but if they are as bad as you make out, it really kicks the props out from under Liston's resume.

"He never gave Machen a rematch."

Why should he? He was no legal obligation to, and took a fight with the champion instead. On this sort of logic, why didn't Liston give Folley a rematch? It is just silly.

"conned Machen and Patterson into taking him lightly."

Any fighter who takes any other fighter lightly has only himself to blame. Machen should have watched the Ten Hoff fight and learned that Ingo was a dangerous puncher. As for Patterson, the film of the Machen fight was shown on TV to hype the 1959 fight. How he could have been "conned" is a head-scratcher.

"Johansson was not a great fighter."

Never said he was.

"His resume is thin."

Okay.

But the issue boils down to how to rate Liston, who is the ATG claimant from this era. not Johansson, and the lower Ingo's stature gets, the more questions it raises about Liston's opposition.

*I will repeat that I think off resume and considering h2h, I pick Liston over Johansson.

 

You still think Ingo beats Liston in 1959?

 

In 1959 Sonnys best win is who? Bethea? I think ingo deserves to start favourite in light of his Machen win. Sonny had not yet met Machen or Folley. Even by then Ingo beat guys who beat the best guys Sonny fought by then too. It took Sonny 11 more rounds to beat Machen. The Patterson Sonny got had been through Johansson by then too.

When I think about movement and right hands I think that is the antidote for beating Sonny so Ingo has a very strong chance in 1959 because he was ahead of Sonny at that point.

Later than this, end of 1960, I favour Sonny. For sure.

 

Which is EXACTLY how Spinks was vs.Tyson.

 

Johansen is the only lineal champion in history, who had nothing much going for him apart from a good right hand!

I think that we have to ask how he got as far as he did?

If his right hand is over rated, then that implies that he must have had some other subtle skills, that we have not picked up on!

Certainly he was not successful for no reason!

If not his right then what?

 

D!rk D!ddl*r's foray into the world of boxing.

 

A statement made by Choklab was bizarre?!! Wow! You must be on to something.

 

I mean it just doesn't get any funnier than this !!!

 

When did Ingo show no confidence in fighting Liston???

You might want to read this.

https://www.si.com/vault/1962/08/13/598006/ingemar-says-liston-is-too-slow