Ingo's right hand.

Exactly my point. To listen to some on here it’s like it never happened. Years later Machen took Frazier 10 rounds too. And yet against Ingo, a different outcome. Ingos bingo.

I agree Sonny was better. That said, Clearly for a short time, Ingo must have really had something.

Neither Ingo or Liston made good champions though. They have that in common.

Greatness is often measured by career timing.

 

Because if you are so adamant that there really are 30 men with better versions of ingos bingo you must know who they all are?

It’s quite reasonable.

 

Who said adamant? It's just a choice in a poll ya know?

Just because it is basically all he had doesn't mean there aren't better right hands among far more complete boxers. Not relying on or using that right hand non stop doesn't make others not as good.

 

I myself do not believe ingos bingo was the zenith, the most thunderous blow of all time and that it was above all echelons Of hard punches. I believe it was among the best ever. So I voted top ten. I can name individual punches that were as good or better like Joe Louis or Marcianos or Lennox Lewis. But those guys were more advanced in that when they took someone out with a right hand is wasn’t always an identical right handed blow each time.

Sometimes overhand, sometimes a right cross, an uppercut sometimes a straight right. The power was as good thrown a number of ways with most right handlers. Like the arm intself provided the power rather than the type of punch. Ingos bingo was always a certain type of punch always thrown an identical way. I don’t think he initially took anyone out with an uppercut. He always seemed to set up the bingo.

If you can name 30 or even 20 who were famous for ending fights with a signature right hand punch every time I would like to see that list please.

 

Ist rd blow outs are often misleading imo.A guy gets caught cold,it happens.
eg Joey Maxim handily decisioned Curtess Shepard twice yet in their middle bout he was kod in the first round!
Maxim went the distance with Charles a bunch of times,Walcott x3 Moore x 3.
Mikle Weaver was stopped in1 rd by average hitting Mike Dokes yet went to a disputed draw in the rematch and survived big punchers like Razor Ruddock
I don't always take it as the winner is that superior to the vanquished and personally I don't think Ingo has a prayer against Liston .The Swede was a very limited fighter with a big right hand, a pawing jab, no left hook ,a dodgy chin, average boxing skills, and speed. To place too much credence on the Machen blow out is the height of naivety ,or in one particular case deceit.

 

Ingo had the best all-time right hand in the history of Swedish boxing. That's as far as I go. Probably top 20-30 all time right hands in the division and sliding backward on the charts every five years.

 

oh? Didn’t Sonny benefit from top level first round blow outs too?

I am confused about this. We should throw out ingos first round wins, Ali’s first round win, Dokes first round win but not Sonny Liston first round wins over Patterson after Johansson beat him? Hmmm

 

Choklab has been in fine form in this thread!!

 

"I see Liston as being by far the superior fighter"

So do I.

"how can you not be impressed by what Johansson did to Machen"

and Patterson. It isn't unique to devastatingly KO the #1 contender and the champion in back to back fights, but not exactly something which happens often or is as easily dismissed by me as it seems to be by some others.

As to Johansson's right hand, it was explosive. Once you can essentially end a fight with one blow, you are a dangerous guy, and if you do it with top men like Patterson and Machen, I find it hard to deny a puncher's chance against a lot of men, including even someone like Liston.

My take is that Johansson, because of his bent of moving away rather well, and having the big right, probably had a better shot at upsetting Liston than anyone else on the late fifties heavyweight scene. This doesn't mean I think he would have, but I also wouldn't have (if I had been around) thought highly of Schmeling's chances against Joe Louis in 1936.

As a commentator said in a doc on the Louis-Schmeling fight over the film of Schmeling landing his first big right--"Boxing is a strange sport. You can be better than your opponent in everything, but you get hit on the chin and it all falls apart."

 

What's Johansson going to do when Liston lands one of his patented left hooks on ingos chin? We know ingo can't take a big punch.

What about Liston jab? Ingo moves away gets caught on the outside by listons 84" sledgehammer repeatedly, how's he gonna get inside?


Lastly,

You would Johansson a better chance than say a Harold Johnson who had a far more complete game and very good skills? It takes more than just a good right hand to beat Liston. Johansson had nothing else in his game. Liston proved he could take a big punch against Williams Valdez Foley and Dejohn.
We all know Johansson did not have a good chin at all. Any big punch landed on him on film, he was knocked down.

I give Harold Johnson a much better shot. Johnson could box, really well, was diifcult to hit cleanly, and had great stamina.

 

Liston did it twice....TWICE

Johansson had an opportunity to do it twice but he got knocked out cold and then lost again in the trilogy.

What would have happened had machen got a trilogy?

 

But he ended up 2-2 vs Patterson and Machen. Liston went 3-0 against those men

Johansson ultimately got exposed by Patterson in the rematches as a one trick pony and lost the trilogy.

Johansson did not fight more than 1 top 10 ranked contender his entire career, so his resume is very thin for a champion. Amongst the thinnest. He did not prove himself vs a wide variety of styles. Never fought big dangerous men like Williams or Valdes to check his chin. He never fought master boxers like Foley Moore or H Johnson. He never fought Liston, the all time great of the era.

Johansson remains very unproven

 

Yes Liston blew away Patterson twice AFTER Ingo already had done it. Ingo bingoed Patterson first.

no matter. Ingo had already beat an undefeated #1 contender in stunning fashion and decimated the champion in his next fight. It’s still good.

why would Machen need a trilogy? Did Marvis Frazier need a trilogy with Tyson?