Is Holmes over Mercer comparable to anything comeback Foreman did?

Moorer was a much better fighter than Mercer, Foreman did well to set him up for the right compared to out boxing a limited brawler but Moorer had a glass jaw so 50/50 I would say.

 

Larry sure did watch that Damiani bout, didn't he? The difference is Larry is/was tougher to catch with the kinds of punches Mercer throws. Let alone to consider the possibility of a 1 punch ko.

Holmes fought smart and was looking for a decision win. He sure was never loading up and trying in any way to stop Mercer before the distance. But outbox him? Sure. And a lot of folks thought that going in and Ray was no big prohibitive favorite or anything. Lots of folks liked Holmes' chances against the guy.

 

It's comparable, yes.

And Holmes was rewarded with a title shot.

But he lost to Holyfield who lost to Moorer who lost to Foreman.

George was in the right place at the right time and made the most of his chance against Moorer.

....And Larry was extremely bitter that George got a title.

Then, Larry got another shot against McCall and came up just short.

 

Different kettles of fish. George came in looking for knockouts. Larry dominated opponents over the distance. What he did at age 42 over 12 rounds to Mercer, then at age 52 over ten with Butterbean is crazy. Knockouts can be rigged. There's no way to rig ten or 12 rounds of movement like Holmes did in his bouts.

Both boxed differently against Holyfield of course, but were about equally competitive, and Larry was obviously far better in taking McCall the distance than Lennox previously was in getting one punched out by Oliver.

Holmes-Moorer would have been interesting. Larry had definite ideas on dealing with a southpaw, and as he advised kid brother Mark, "When in doubt, stick it (the jab) out."

 

Moorer, Lou Savarase, Briggs, Alex Schulz, Pierre Coetzer, were all better fighters than Mercer. Hell I would even say that Cooney that fought Foreman was still better than Mercer. Mercer is one of those guys who whole career is based off Morrison gassing and him doing well in a losing effort against Lewis.

 

Moorer beat Holyfield and Mercer lost to him. You could also add Moorer was a bigger puncher. Moorer knocked out Cooper while Mercer had to go the distance.

 

I thought Mercer deserved a draw against Holmes. People make it seem like Holmes dominated, but he didn't.

 

Damiani should clearly have been a red flag for Mercer, who was saved by a light nose shattering right uppercut against the amateur who finally broke Teofilo Stevenson's heavyweight dominance in the three round ranks. (Francesco was followed by fellow master boxer Craig Payne, the first amateur American to beat Stevenson since the 1971 Pan Am Games, when Duane Bobick relegated Teofilo to a bronze medal. Stevenson more than avenged that the following year at the Munich Olympics.)

Mercer just wasn't smart enough to realize, "I guess I'd better learn how to box!" after Damiani. Too late to realize that after Holmes.

BTW, Danny Lopez ruined Mike Ayala's nose with a light left jab which similarly shattered it. Truly dedicated boxers might just want their nose cartilage removed as Antuofermo had his protruding brow surgically shaved before his rematch with MMH (far too late for Vito with all the scar tissue he'd already accumulated).

Regarding those freak nose shattering punches that induced intolerable agony, pain resistance IS an integral part of toughness in an inherently tough sport. What stopped Damiani would have NEVER stopped the likes of a Joe Frazier or Sam Langford. (A broken left thumb couldn't stop Joe in the 1964 Olympics. Shards of metal from an old speed bag into one of his eyes couldn't stop Smoke. He trained hard through the ravages of high blood pressure and arthritis. He came back from a broken ankle after Ellis I to destroy Bob Foster in 1970. George Foreman can be seen pleading to Frazier's corner in Kingston that Joe's going to get killed rather than stay down for the count.)

Foreman-Moorer? Larry admitted on camera years before his falling out with George that they got along well, and that Holmes used Foreman as the template for his own comeback after his Tyson debacle. For his part, although MM had dominated George, Foreman wasn't expending himself as he did in his youth. Yes, his face was badly swollen, and Angelo Dundee asked if he was all right, but if that one had gotten to the final scheduled round, George would have really cut loose after they touched gloves. Moorer could swell his face as Frazier did in their 1976 rematch, but MM just didn't have the firepower to knock out a barely expended challenger.

Because Holmes could still dominate over ten or 12, and compete with all the best (Holyfield is the only decision loss on his record nobody including Larry himself disputes), I think that's more impressive than the additional clear cut decision loss Foreman additionally sustained against a heavily 'roided Tommy Morrison, and John Tate over Mike Weaver dominance by Moorer before those sudden knockouts, but Holmes never even comes back from Tyson if George doesn't return first with old trainer Archie Moore to show how it could be done. (Ultimately, Larry hired the universally respected Saoul Mamby as a trainer for himself, and even in competition at 60, Sweet Saoul's legs remained good, although his punch rate was no longer competitive.)

 

In a way it was a good result for a ageing Holmes .He beat a guy who went on to give Lewis and Holy field tough fight s .Holmes proved what a great fighter he was beating a lot younger undefeated mercer.

 

I would give it to foreman, if only because Moorer was the lineal champion.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

Physically, I am referring to the witnessed exertion involved over an extended period.

We know that professional wrestling is scripted, and now caters to easily bored spectators with limited attention spans, so there are brief performancesl. But back in the day, when guys like Bruno Sammartino and Gorilla Monsoon would wrestle for around two hours until the 11:00 PM NYC curfew, or Ric Flair and Harley Race or Rick Steamboat or Dusty Rhodes would go for an hour or more night after night in a "regular" title bout to a finish, or gimmick type match, there was no faking the endurance, the stamina involved. Rhodes was a tubby butterball physically, but he was also a very serious athletic talent (ditto Monsoon).

Holmes was moving all 10 rounds with Butterbean at age 52. His legs were carrying 254 pounds of weight, and he wasn't stationary like late career Locche, or lumbering Foreman. (Buster Mathis, Sr. could also move at his best, and was a serious athlete at other sports.)

It's been guesstimated that at age 38, JJW's legs traveled the equivalent of a marathon in Marciano I. These are major expenditures of energy.

Jump rope on a hard rubber surface for half an hour nonstop while keeping your mouth pressed over a gumshield (using only your nose for respiration) and not be breathing hard when you're done. (Or, you can go for three minutes, rest for one minute, then skip for another three until you've completed ten to 15 such cycles.) That's just skipping rope. Nobody's trying to hit you, and there's no spectators. (One novice boxer I read about was so excited about competing with adrenaline so out of control he danced himself into exhaustion in a matter of seconds, passed out, and was counted out. An overconfident Marciano was similarly helpless in his amateur debut, and became a training fanatic.

Back to professional wrestling. When Andy Kaufman was undertaking his gimmick of wrestling women, he picked one out of the audience for a challenge. She agreed (this was a layperson, NOT a performer), and despite Jerry Lawler training her extensively, she got dry "cottonmouth" (stage fright) before an arena audience, and got pinned in less than 30 seconds (not as scripted, but hyperventilating with heart racing, leaving experienced entertainer Kaufman no choice but to finish that event very prematurely).

Holmes should have been far more deteriorated along those same lines due to the aging process, yet wasn't. He had a few knockout wins in the 1990's, but took on top flight competitors over ten and 12 rounds for the most part. He didn't lose ten and 12 round shutouts by doing nothing, but competed against many of the best over ten and 12 rounds, arguably winning all but one.

Just a brief check in to see what's been going on here. Logging out. (Later, sometime...)

 

It was definitely a good win for Holmes after being beaten by Spinks twice and being destroyed by Tyson. Foreman knocking out Moorer will be my favorite sports memory even better than the Washington Redskins winning three Superbowls. So no Larry didn't achieve as much in his comeback as Foreman did. Also, I like Holmes a lot, but I don't like Larry's attitude toward Foreman. Foreman made a ton of money from his grill and other endorsements that Holmes never did, and I suspect a lot of jealousy on Holmes part.