MARVIN HAGLER-I don't think so

Well, I graduated 26 years ago. LOL.

I agree many recent colleg grads. are critical thinking challenged SJW's.

 

Okay, well, from Unforgiven's perspective, when would you say his prime ended?

 

good post. Yeah the weight is a bit of an issue, but I think stylewise and because of the weight is why Hagler would almost fight more nonaggressive since in his mind he seemed to need a challenge. He fought better when he had an urgency to him which then motivated him. Pernell was a little too small and your argument is good. I suppose the style is what I am talking about but yeah the weight would be an issue, more for Pernell than Duran since Roberto to me was a naturally bigger man than Pernell. I think Duran handled he move very well moving up, since he already was weighing in between fights probably about 160 or 170 in the late 1970s, which many people will probably argue with me on.

 

I always thought college was a great investment regardless of the job situation. I told my sister that and she seems to think college is only good if you can find a job with it, which yes that is the objectiveI suppose, but also the general learning a bachelors degree gives is probably worth it, although I have met people who read the newspaper everyday and they seem to know more than college educated people. My Grandparents on my dad's side were 3rd and 8th grade educated, yet their son my dad got a Phd and in many ways that degree almost consumed his life since you have to go into the field you get a Phd in, or why put the 8 years or whatever it is into that? He always stressed how important education was, and I do think it is ok.. . Although I did not get a Phd, I went as far as a bachelors. I was not an only child like my dad, whose parents could put him through college like that. So it does take money, especially today. I am not sure why I wrote all this.. but I think it was to say. I do not think college is wasted money. I have noticed my friends who went to school -like a trade schools tended to use the learning better. It was almost directed more toward something.

 

I am really sick of the "Leonard fought Duran's fight" narrative.

If you've ever boxed you know you are not participating in a narrative or in a style contest. You are digging down on instinct, preference and training. It can only be that Leonard was forced by Duran to fight the style that Duran preferred or that Leonard only knew to fight that style against an opponent like Duran. Either way, Duran was the boss. And the boss wins.

Stop with your silly bullsh*t.

 

Except they said beforehand that they were going to try to beat Duran at his own fight, and then Leonard went out and by all appearances attempted to do just that. How is referencing this "silly bull****"?

 

Ray said himself he was going to fight him at his own fight. He said I tried my damndest and I almost won. So I thought, if I fight my fight next time I will win easily.. Right out of Ray's mouth. Silly bs from Ray himself.

 

He was still prime in 1980.
And he was only slightly past prime in 1982 and '83.

 

Because not ONCE, did they EVER mention fighting "his" fight pre-fight. That only came up afterwards to try excuse the loss. What they said is, why is my going to back up? My guy is bigger, stronger, taller and younger, so we don't need to go straight backwards and play into Duran's strength. Further, and what totally contradicts this fallacy you and Pea keep talking about, is that he WAS moving like he always did. Look at Round 1, he's backing away NUMEROUS times. He's circling and backing away NUMEROUS times, like he always does. He doing his usual boxer puncher routine. Just how he fought Wilfred to win the title. Difference is, Wilfred was allowing SRL to just circle and box, he thought he could beat him that way. Duran wasn't doing anything of the sort. He was charging SRL and pressing the fight much more. Even then SRL was trying to move away and circle and box, and then what happened Kev? Something you've been told over and over and is plain to see. He got hurt, and hurt badly. The worst he had ever been hurt as a Pro and maybe even amateurs. THEN he started moving less and getting caught on the ropes more. However, he didn't go into the ring and go, I'm going to fight his fight and beat him. No, he tried to fight his fight, and Duran maybe him fight that way and he got hurt. Simple.

 

Show me any interview or anything BEFORE the fight where SRL said, I'm going to fight his own fight. That was never said. That was only said after the fight to try and discredit the Duran's win in a PR move. They never used such words, nor did he try and fight that way at the start of the fight. He simply got forced into a fight after he was badly hurt, and a fight he didn't end up winning. Let's dispel this rumor of him not moving away and only wanting to go toe to toe....

This content is protected

Round one only as shown below
Backs away at 15:52
Backs away and circles at 16:00 till 16:06 and then moves slightly back again at 16:07
Almost runs back at 16:08 when Duran charges
slight lateral movement and then again backs away at 16:15
again, circle and movement and then a slight back away 16:21
again at 16:23 he backs up again and resets
does it again at 16:27
side to side lateral movement and slightly moving away at 16:30
again backs away and moves away at 16:47
16:52 to 17:00 is still SRL backing and circling away
Then he briefly catches Duran with a good shot at 17:01 and presses the actions a bit because he thinks he's hurt
A brief rush and SRL backs away again. They reset.
at 17:19, again SRL doesn't stand his ground and backs away again to the ropes
17:30 to 17:47 is Ray being cautious and circling and slightly backing away at times
again at 18:01 he slightly backs away again to avoid a slight rush
The rest of round was a lot of clinching and wrestling and then SRL again backing away at 18:34

The continues to fight that way at the beginning of round 2, just as he did before. Hardly never moving away and circling like his being falsely reported. He did a lot of that. He was trying to simple circle and box like he always does, but Duran's rushes disrupted that pattern at times. Do you guys even know what standing your ground and trying to go toe to toe means? I'm starting to think not. I see you got caught up in SRL's post fight comments, but those mean very little. At Seamus and eloquently pointed out... In boxing, you go out and try and fight your fight, and sometimes it goes better than others. He didn't just go, ya know what, I'm going to do exactly what he wants and stand in this position when he wants, and fight exactly how he wants. It's ludicrous. He tried to fight his fight, Duran simply didn't allow that.

 

Oh stop it..Duran’s win over Leonard is one of the single greatest wins in boxing history. Maybe the best. Pernell Whitaker couldn’t beat sugar ray Leonard at 147 in his wildest dreams, nor does he have one single win on his resume which comes even close to that

 

I wouldn't use the term slightly past his prime, when he's 3/4 divisions north of where he started, and over 13 years into his career. I would use a term more than slight, but that is just me. Seems even you agree, he wasn't prime and yet going against ATG fighters in THEIR PRIME. Those aren't excuses, those are facts

 

I can write a whole thing here saying what I have said before, or I can say look at the fights and round one of both fights and tell me how Ray fights differently.. The proof is there before anyone makes anyone fight that fight. Why didn't Duran make Benitez fight his fight and beat him like Ray beat Benitez? Why couldn't Duran fight his fight vs. Hearns.. And listen, many people say he was too small. but like I said, Duran fought at 154 before Hearns,Benitez and Leonard did.. Everyone says things to protect themselves. Duran said after all his losses to legends that he didn't train.

 

I think slightly past his prime is very accurate. Remember he fought at 154 as early as 1978. The size was not the issue. He hurt Barkley, and had a good right hand and could hurt anyone. He fought 13 years and fought another 21 after the Ray Leonard loss. 21 years. Excuses are not facts, they are ways to explain a loss. When he wins after 1980.. in 1983 and 1989 specifically, he gets total credit as a great for winning more titles. Had he beaten Hearns in 1984, his fans would say he is the greatest ever. The fact is the only ATG fighters Duran fought was after he wa a lightweight, so that is the problem. How do we rank him. On lightweight, he was dominant but not great opponents. How do we rate him.

 

According to Leonard, it was his peference to try to fight Duran's fight - to stay close and exchange.