Why I think GGG is a top 15 all-time middleweight.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Apr 13, 2018.


Is Golovkin a top 15 all time great at middle weight?

  1. Yes

    55.4%
  2. No

    44.6%
  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    The middleweight division, without a, doubt one of the four most essential divisions in boxing.

    Ranking the best in division history is no easy task, partly because the rich history dates back to the 1840's, and many of the best matches were never filmed or have become lost films.

    Generally speaking, most historians or serious fans would place the names Gerb, Robinson, Hagler, Monzon, Walker, and Fitzsimmons in their top ten, and all would make the top 15. I'm not going to argue these six men don't belong. Instead, I will at times use them as a benchmark to show why Golovkin belongs in the top 15 in the history of the division. After all, if they are a consensus of the top ten, and Golovkin compares favorably or equal in many areas, he most certainly belongs.


    Professional Ring Record 37-0-*1. 87% KO ratio. The only undefeated middleweight champion. World Title belts held. WBA, WBC, and IBF.

    Key take aways:

    1 ) Golovkin won all three major belts, away some define the real champion in modern times hamstrung by politics. Such a feat is rare.

    2 ) Golovkin, at age 36 is the only undefeated middle champion in the history of the sport. The Rocky Marciano of modern times for middleweight with a twist. Golovkin beat his best past his prime, while Rocky beat his best when his opponents were mostly past their primes. This separates Golovkin from the pack of history. #1 in this department as everyone else lost at least once at 160 pounds.

    Successful title defenses 19!

    Key takeaways:

    1 ) Only Hopkins has more ( 20 ), and legends like Monzon and Hagler have 14, and 12 respectively. Golovkin is in elite company, and on the 5th of May, I predict Golovkin will tie Hopkins! So not only will be the be the only undefeated middleweight champion in the history of the squared circle, but he will also have the most title defenses. Once again he separates himself from the pack of history, not once but twice! Hmm, still undefeated at age 36 AND the most title defenses in the history of the division? I'd argue anyone with these two huge accomplishments would be shortlisted for the top 15.


    Style and skills

    Without a doubt Golovkin is a swarming attacker with rare power, who can target the head or the body, but his style and power alone do not define him. In my opinion, he's got one of the top jabs in the history of the division. His power rates as no worse than 3rd best of all time ( 87%KO ratio ) and he also has one of the top chins, as he was never floored in 38 professional matches...or ever floored in 350 amateur matches. This unheard of for any division. 388 matches with never being knocked down. Amazing.

    Key Take away: Golovkin rates #1 in KO percentage among all middleweight champions, and he is the only one never to be floored. He can win by outboxing and landing with his jab, with his power, or by slugging. The chances of knocking him out in 388 boxing matches is a statistical zero.


    Winning his best matches past his prime.

    Among the greats, one has to ask when did they retire? Gerb was only 32, he died young, but was slowing at this age. Hagler, just 32. Walker and Mozon, age 34. By retiring when they did, each man prevented further losses. The interesting point here is Golovkin, won key matches past his prime at age 34-35, vs. style matchup that past their prime boxers have the most trouble against. That is speedy/defensive fighters.

    Golovkin defeated the following men at 34-35

    Wade, who as undefeated at age 26
    Brook, who was undefeated at age 30.
    Jacobs, who was 34-1 at age 30

    What we have here is rare, an older champion defeating much young raked opponents in their prime. Only the true greats can do this.

    GGG did not officially defeat Canelo, three judges, one of them crooked beyond belief called a draw. The majority of media scorecards correctly had GGG as the winner, and it appears Canelo who refused to weight in the night of the fight, was on peds.

    In the amateurs, Golovkin drafted name professionals such as Matvey Korobov (RUS) 19:10, Andy Lee (29:9), Lucian Bute (stoppage).


    Pound for pound status.

    The pinnacle any boxer can hope for. Golvokin is currently #1 in Ring Magazine pound for pound ratings. Ring Magazine ratings, though not 100% perfect are boxing best ratings. How many former middleweight champions have been #1 pound for pound, a term coined for Sugar Ray Robison? VERY FEW. Anyone want to count?


    Quality of opposition beaten.

    This is the one area where critics have a point, but to be fair, it's not like Golovkin had a chance to fight hall of fame fighters. Mayweather would never fight him, not even if the IRS was after him and his net worth was zero. Nor world Cotto, who would have undoubtedly been knocked out. Is anyone picking Mayweather or Cotto here, besides say Dino? I'm guessing the poll would be lopsided in favor of Golovkin. I also feel Martinez, wanted no part of GGG either. Canelo soiled the re-match by testing positive. GGG was avoided and unlucky.

    But I did a count of fighters Golovkin defeated that was ring magazine annually ranked. I do not have access to monthly rankings so this number could be higher.

    Geale ( KO WIN )
    Murray ( KO WIN )
    Lemieux ( KO WIN )
    Jacobs ( Decision )
    Rubio ( KO WIN )
    Macklin ( KO WIN )
    Stevens ( KO WIN )
    Canelo ( Bogus Draw )

    So GGG here is officially 7-0-1 but should be 8-0.

    Now for the closing. While Golovkin's opponents beaten doesn't stand out, he blew many of them away and edged others past his prime. He was undefeated. Did other top ten all time greats lost to lesser fighters than GGG fought? Absolutely! How about some examples? Read on...

    Hagler lost to Monroe and Watts. Hagler also drew with Antuofermo. I think Jacobs and Canelo are equal to or better than the opponents Hagler lost to or drew with.

    Monzon lost to Aguilar, Cambeiro, Massi who was only 2-0 and drew NINE times. I think Jacobs and Canelo are equal to or better then the guys Monzon lost to or drew with

    Greb lost to some guys you probably never heard of! Bartfield, Chip, Graves, Borrell, Keiser, Graves ( TKO Loss ), I'll skip the numerous draws and his first 20 bouts. I think Jacobs and Canelo are equal to or better then the guys Greb lost to or drew with.

    Walker lost to Delmont making his debut ( KO Loss ), Smith, making his debut ( KO Loss ), Gradwell, S. O'Brien twice, Pitts, Shade, Bogash, Ward, Nelson, Malone, Latzo, and Dundee. I'll skip the four draws and name losses. I think Jacobs and Canelo are equal to or better than the guys Walker, lost to or drew with.

    Looking back, its hard to imagine if video and web were around back then, 'cause modern fans would rip them to pieces.

    I do think Golvkin is a top 15 all-time great at middleweight.


    *** I might edit this post for more information when I have the time. ***
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  2. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Never thought I would say this .... but I agree with you Mendoza ... well put
     
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  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Appreciated.
     
  4. Smokin Bert

    Smokin Bert Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I love Golovkin. I don't begrudge anyone who puts him in the top 15 Middleweights. But, I do not have him that high. He just did not beat enough quality opponents. Beating the Dominic Wades and Daniel Geales of the world is not enough for that lofty status in such a deep and competitive division as middleweight. I fully agree that this fact was often no fault of Golovkin's. 5 years ago he was an undefeated champion, eager to unify, and, willing to fight anybody. It is a pity that so many unanswered questions are left on the table with Gennady. And, an even bigger pity that the corrupt powers that be at Golden Boy screwed him out of his deserved win against Canelo.
     
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  5. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed .. would you think he is a top 15 h2h guy? or even top 10? from what you have seen
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Not top 50.

    EDIT: Actually, I'll recant that. Not top 40.
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Who you beat is one thing. Lots of legacy wins happen with one guy in his prime and the other out of it. Furthermore, fate did not smile upon Golovkin as he could build part of his legacy on HOF lower weight fighters moving up to meet him, like say Hagler and Monzon did.

    Its a pity he was robbed of a win vs. his best opponent.

    How you beat them, and when you beat them is another thing. It is here where Golovkin shines as he was a destroyer type, and beat his best when he was past his prime, but his best opponents were in theirs.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Wow. Just wow.

    I'd love to see your top 15-30, GGG would beat most of them. Upon cross-examination of their records, they won't come out smelling like roses once I review them.

    Not placing GGG in the top 40 is dumbfounding. You correctly put Wlad in the top ten, partly on longevity and title defenses, but GGG doesn't get the same standard from you?
     
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  9. Smokin Bert

    Smokin Bert Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I used to think so, but, now I am not so sure. He does fine against brawlers, but, really hasn't faced many elite "boxers." It may be a function of his age now, but, I suspect that many boxers would give him a lot of trouble. Hagler would make him pay dearly for allowing himself to take so many clean punches, and, I think Roy Jones would have toyed with him at middleweight. But, GGG is a tough opponent for most every other middleweight. I think he is a top 50 without question. Maybe top 25. Just not top 15.
     
  10. Smokin Bert

    Smokin Bert Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with everything you say here. I just happen to rate the middleweight contenders of the last 10 years much lower than you do. Golovkin truly dominated. But, I believe he dominated during the weakest era in middleweight history.
     
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  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    All golovkin had to do was step up and fight Ward or kovalev and his legacy would have skyrocketed
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Good post overall but you can't compare primes in terms of raw age. Some fighters are coming up at an age where past fighters we ending their career.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Nah,it's really not "dumfounding" if you do the work. Let's have a look at some of the guys who are in the forty.

    Micheal Nunn. Beat Marlon Starling, Sumbu Kalambay; his supplementary wins, Frank Tate, Iran Barkley and Donald Curry are probably as good as anything GGG has on his win ledger. I'm not sure Murray, for example, would beat any of them, though he may have. I'm satsified that his three best wins are better than everything GGG has. It's not unreasonable to suggest that GGG's longevity - though he has never been lineal like Nunn was - hauls him back, but Golovkin absolutely is not locked above Nunn. Both would be the best the other had beat though.

    Randy Turpin. In possession of the single greatest MW win of all time? He'd be there or thereabouts but that's arguable. What does that do for a fighter? Well, in the case of Max Schmeling and Kenny Norton it made them ATG top twenty types; MW is so deep that Turpin only gets to the 30s. Again, GGG is arguably above Turpin but based upon what? Upon beating fighters that Robinson would have dusted in sparring.

    Roy Jones. James Toney. Guys like that. GGG hasn't done anything to distinguis himself from these fighters at all.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    A swarming attacher with his skills and power is the bane of pure boxer types. GGG targets and punishes the body, right up there among the best body punchers in history. With his aggression and complete confidence in his chin, only an elite level boxer with longer arms, better speed, heart and a top chin would beat him on points, and the division didn't have many of those guys.

    Golovkin was a hit and counter type early on, and he proved his ability to score in the amateurs with a record only an outstanding boxer can produce. Like I said before, he's got an all time jab @160.

    Golvokin is a rare breed that can win by out boxing, slugging, or stalking. While Hagler was great, he was also risk adverse, which is a reason why smaller men who did not hit has hard beat him and Duran had a good showing. I'm not sure Hagler would be as aggressive as you think he would be vs GGG.

    I think GGG TKO's Duran.

    Roy Jones could out box GGG okay he's the fasted and most skilled, but with his chin, he would need to avoid being tagged. I don't think Jones would risk a belt vs GGG though he could be a the on points or get KO'd.

    But like I said if you have to use top ten all time greats in the argument, he belongs too.
     
  15. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

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    :lol:

    I have no problem anyone voting Golovkin as a top 15 ATG MW. But why over exaggerate his resume and accomplishments? Interim or paper fake belts don't count when addressing defenses, Sturm was the true WBA champ from 07 to 2012, then Geale held it till vacating during the start of 2013. GGG didn't hold a real world title belt until his fight with Gabe Rosado back in 2013.

    Pound for pound status.

    The pinnacle any boxer can hope for. Golvokin is currently #1 in Ring Magazine pound for pound ratings. Ring Magazine ratings, though not 100% perfect are boxing best ratings. How many former middleweight champions have been #1 pound for pound, a term coined for Sugar Ray Robison? VERY FEW. Anyone want to count?

    Felix Trinidad, Bernard Hopkins, Marvin Hagler, Roy Jones, James Toney, Ray Leonard, to name a few?

    I laugh when people count Curtis Stevens and Rubio as some of GGG's biggest wins. What EXACTLY did Curtis Stevens do to warrant a top 10 MW ranking by the time he fought GGG? His win over Proska was a better win. Dying at this guy using amateur wins cause GGG doesn't have enough depth as a pro. LOOL.

    To be honest, you made me realize that GGG's resume is worse than I thought. I still cringe when people overrate Jacobs, who was nothing but a slow, plodding, face first brawler with a punch before he gave GGG all he could handle.


    Your bias aside, I still can reasonably see GGG as a top 15 ATG MW. He is undefeated, made a lot of defenses and unified which is a plus. I can't really give too much credit on his unification though, he won vacant WBA and WBC belts and the IBF one from Lemmy, who in turn won a vacant belt due to the last champ being sent to a mental hospital lmfao.
     
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