Where do you draw the line at Heavyweight vs Super Heavyweight ?

I agree the difference between the really big men of the past vs the modern era is athletic ability giving them the ability to use their size advantage in a way that WIllard and Carnera did not......the 6'3" 210lb+ heavies of the 70-80's had developed this ability phasing out the Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Patterson, Frazier sized fighters. Mike Weaver was a previous generation sized heavy fighting in the new era with bigger men with skill and speed was not seen often before I wondered how he would have done in previous eras. A few big men 6'5" with that 6'2" coordination at the time were competitive but were the precursor to the 90's...the natural strength difference between a natural big man and a man outsized by 20-30lbs is a big differential to overcome and if we are having 6'6" heavyweights fighting with the athleticism of cruisers the smaller men are at a disadvantage and that is where we are nearly at big men who can move and use leverage unlike previous generations...Look at the NFL we have huge athletic skill position guys these days more today than ever boxing has found the same secret to getting this type of athletic performance out of huge men.....I am not sure where the cutoff should be but agree that their is super-heavyweight division already in reality.

 

Most people who outweigh their opponent win!

Just bc Wilder is very light he is 6'7......doesn't change total stats!

I highly doubt majority of people would favor him over many past top guys like the Klitchkos, Lewis..etc..

Let's not forget he was saved by the bell against the MUCH older Ortiz who's age stopped him more than anything in that fight.

 

You are a very funny man Chok.

 

You don’t think Leroy jones could be champ today when Manuel Charr is?

Leroy was a good fighter. The National Amatuer coach switched to the pros to work with him. He beat a prime Mike Weaver.

Tiger Williams, if you watch him, is better than anybody Wilder has beat.

 

Yes because gloves got much bigger. The fat guy can shield himself more thoroughly as he walks down and leans all over the small guy. When the gloves were smaller the guy who threw the most punches won.

 

Leroy did not beat the best version of Mike Weaver. Weaver was yet to hit his straps and blossomed late a bit like Ken Norton. Ironically Norton was one of two players who helped Weaver get serious and turn his career around.

Williams better than Ortiz? Many would disagree. Williams is better known for sparring stories than real fight results.

 

Do you think there is a coincidence at all that these new “athletic” guys appeared only after the widespread use of PEDs in sport?

We don’t know if without modern enhancement these guys would have been thin armed long neck types who could never made it as a boxer.

Changes in training might have allowed coaches to get more out of that type of fighter. These guys might never have existed before. But since they do now all it is doing is distorting what the true linage of what heavyweight boxing should be.

We still have 22O pound heavyweights. They are called cruiser weight. I think that is wrong.

 

Jones beat a prime Weaver. That is inarguable. Jones was a good Superheavyweight fighting in the wrong division. But he would win titles now because we now have a Superheavyweight division. It just has the wrong name.

Tiger Williams is better than drug cheat Ortiz.

 

Weavers best came after Jones. If you knew anything at all about Weaver and boxing you would know that.

What division should Jones have fought in given that he fought in the Heavyweights? Boil down to light heavyweight? Middleweight?

Where do i find this current "Super Heavyweight" division you speak of?

 

Weaver was a good fighter. Are you saying weavers prime began immediately after he lost to jones? and before losing to Leroy Jones weaver was terrible? Because if you do say that then what you are saying is that Weaver transformed into somebody else in the 10 months after he lost to Jones in time to fight Larry Holmes. Which is ridiculous. Even for you.

Leroy Jones was a Superheavyweight fighting in the heavyweight division, which is now the cruiserweight division (since the cruisers are 15-20lb bigger on the night than they used to be) and that was unfortunate For Leroy. I think Jones would struggle with Gassiev but he might to better with Manuel Charr.

Don’t you think Big bad Leroy Jones would be more successful now, among other Superheavyweights?

 

What are you doing with that name?

I think you've conflated results with skills. There is a reason why Marciano's KO over Walcott is one of the most famous, respected, and celebrated sequences in all of boxing. It was by theory perfect. Check his posture, his position, and his patience, notice the play of line of sight. amazing timing, and the absolute absurdity of how perfect his hooks actually were. He took up dangerous posture and offered dangerous position and in a split second flipped the entire script of Joe and walloped him before Walcott was able to throw his Sucka Punch with text book perfect form and timing.

Inversely the **** have we seen out of Joshua except a unique ability to initiate an exchange and once said exchange has begun lose all sense of posture which causes Joshua to be out of position. The improper juxtaposition of the two fighters forces Joshua to pervert his powerline causing him to lose more energy with every punch than he puts into an opponent and given his powerline is disconnected and his kinematic chains are impure it causes him to waste most of the energy he creates forcing him to tire early and easily. Plus he's a track fighter who can't handle a simple pivot. There's a reason Wilder and Fury pivot so often when displaying their shadow boxing skills. Because today it's a rare skill at HW.

So yeah....I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry you choose to go by that pseudonym, but I am not impressed by Joshua's ability to stand there and throw hooks with all the form of a WWF Brawl for All. That is not boxing, that is no answer for a Marciano gameplan. It's a sitting duck. You can tell me but him athletic doe....no the **** he isn't, if he was his ass would not gas or fight such a god awful slow pace. He is in fact the type of person who inspired the shift from 15 to 12. A fifteen rounder at a solid pace might kill this kid.

If weight division keep thing fair why did it take a few thousand years? You really believe the ancient and early bare knucklers are too damn dumb as hell to make a fair fight? Do you honestly believe those who literally worshipped the sport and saw it as a ritual to boxing god Apollo enjoyed mismatching their whole lives?

No son, you are assuming and have not looked into or given any ****s about the history or reasoning behind weight divisions. It is an if-then situation. If you make a rule such as bringing in time limits then you have just favored a size of man or taken away the basic core game plan used by a size man for over a millenia. Today's rules Joshua can't box Marciano or anyone else at 175. In any era's ruleset where it'd be allowed there is more favoritism than the present toward a smaller man. It is more equalized so no you don't know what the **** you are talking about and weight division where not made to keep things safe just open ended like that without any other influence to cause some form of imbalance in the martial art. Time was brought in to make boxing marketable and weight division are a natural response to time constraints. Less time, more weight division, and you know that has happen in the modern era in the 80s...time change came with what? More divisions. Like I said, you are a fella what looks at the bits of history that interest you not a fella who has looked at the full picture and attained a real understanding of history.

How many Floyd Mayweather fans are there alive right now? How many of them have even heard the name Mendoza? How many Floyd Mayweather fans can speak to how to sell a fight or build a brand? Exactly, being very into a one thing does make you blind to that one thing's full truth. You can not explain Floyd without first explaining Mendoza. If you do all you're doing is leaving the story half told which is why more often than not Floyd's attitude was related to Ali rather than Mendoza and Ali himself is related to a ****ing Pro Wrestler and sometimes Johnson but not Mendoza. The tale of the loud, brash, in your face black man has been told over and over again, but who actually does it any justice and explains how it began or where it came from? Ain't no difference when it comes to weight. People tell that tale often, but, that does not mean they tell that tale well.

War is why we have boxing in the first place....you'd do well to think on that. Do you really believe the sword is limited by weight? How about literally any other form of warfare in any history on any part of the planet? But the fist is? Boxing is a martial art that is so damn applicable on the battlefield the states that teach boxing in their militaries, states that produce champions in the sport, and the world's most powerful nation at any given time since 686BC are the same damn thing.

Greece, Rome, UK, US.....the flow of boxing dominance or the flow of world dominance? Think about it a little, maybe read into it some, before you write it off and tell me about how strong Joshua must be and what weight classes are for. The idea that boxing can not handle a stronger man is absurd. The idea that Marciano was always the stronger man is absurd. Do you really believe Joe was too stupid to realize he had over ten pounds on Rock? He was unable and a much more skilled tactician. Joshua might have a lot more size but the idea that that is an automatic benefit shows how bias you are, ya got that size fetish bucko and nothing more. Joshua has size he does not know how to use against a man much smaller than him nor should he. Marciano is from the last era that allowed giants to fight average sized men, he was trained to be a giant slayer. Joshua has no answer, nor by any form of logic in training should he.

Riposte or go to sleep. Him big doe and him bein' big mean him win any time they is close is not a riposte, he goes the **** to sleep.

 

Your hitlist is a endless universe of nonsense.

Leroy Jones had weight advantages in almost every fight he fought. Where did he proove he could win in a SHW-devision? Charr boxed some title fights. How many did Jones? http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/2199

Now not having a weight advantage tells you a boxer from the past is doing better vs big guys, when he actually never fought any?

Roy Williams better than Ortiz? What stuff are you on???

Tiger accumulated losses everywhere against anybody: http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/234
Ortiz fought 8 years undefeatet in the SHW-devision and came razor thin to beat one of the two best SHW-Boxers out there at the moment. Yep, Tiger Williams did that too I guess

You better get rid of the stuff you are smoking, the side effects include harsh fantasy daydreams....

 

Juice head Ortiz was on blood pressure meds and 38 ( 39 that month ) or 41 according to the Cuban trainer. Wilder barley escaped here, and won mainly because Ortiz, who was well in the lead and had Wilder hurting gassed.

Name one smaller non-top ten talent who can beat Wilder? The top ten isn't smaller these days, and neither is the top 40, so there's a short list of candidates to choose from. I'll say Usyk on points, but he's a cruiser for now,

I think Povetkin TKO's Wilder, provided the fight in 2018. Soon Povetkin will be 40 and " safe " for Wilder to pick him if he so chooses.

Parker is he's not afraid of getting hit could out box Wilder, but his performance vs. Joshua leads me to believe he's hardly a warrior type. He too gasses and hasn't exactly been hammering guys in his last three fights.

The top ten isn't very good right now. The talent on the way is better, just not as accomplished.

 

He uses it, he just doesn't maximize it. Joshua would be the hardest puncher Marciano every fought. Marciano would really have to get close to land, and Johsua if he wants to can move his feet too.

At this point, I'll take Joshua head to head, legacy wise he's got a way to go to tie Rocky.

 

The trouble with your nonsense is it is based on a notion that today we have all time great Superheavyweights. It does not stand up. We have a division of Superheavyweights yes. But great? You cannot, will not back it up.

The all time list made up only of 240 pounders consists of Lennox Lewis. A top ten of one? After him who the hell is there with a resume worth mentioning? the Clutching Klitschkos? Any top ten list must includes Primo Carnera. In what other division would a Primo Carnera type make it into the top ten ATG list?

The list of exclusive 240 pound guys is very very short.


Who are they? Lennox Lewis won just 16 of 44 fights weighing 240lb or over. He drew at that size to a guy giving away 30lb for one of them. And he’s the best one!


The second best 240 pounder is Bowe. Riddick was only 240lb or above for 10 of his 40 fights. Only Seven of those fights were wins in the true sense of the word.


Who do we have after that Wlad? He was knocked out twice to guys giving away almost 20lb.


If we limit 240lb ATG’s to guys who never weighed less than 240lb we are left with just Primo Carnera as the GOAT.

I don’t think you realise Manuel Charr is about Chuck Wepner level. If somebody gave chuck Wepner a bogus belt in the 1970s he would still be chuck freakin’ Wepner. And that’s who Charr is. He is still Manuel freakin’ Charr. Only he is a champion today.

Against guys closer to his own size Leroy Jones would get hit less, not more often. And at a pace that would suit him. I ask again, would he compare well with champion Manuel Charr? You must answer this to partly attempt to prove your wild claims.

what stuff am I on? What about the stuff that your guy Ortiz was on? The guy is a confirmed DRUGS CHEAT.

yes, how many of those guys were hand picked? What percentage of competitive fights did he have. 1%? What percentage of his career was he fuelled with illegal performance enhancers? And still Ortiz laboured in fights where he looked very very ordinary. He was very old. Without being very good, He gassed out in a fight he should have won against Wilder. I don’t think Wilder is much cop. I think Ortiz made him look good. Not great.