Do you hold it against Jack Dempsey for not fighting Harry Greb?

Never thought of you as a diplomat .. you have to get rocket man to behave ..

 

I have no control over anyone here ,and I have a loony going off at me at the moment ,"Raucous the Shammer"

 

I find it strange that Wills always seems to get a pass for losing to Sharkey and Uzcudun with his age being cited as a reason, yet at the same time is supposed to receive credit for beating the black dynamite trio of Mcvey, Jeanette, and Langford when all 3 were older than Wills was when he lost to Sharkey and had more fights than Wills did when he defeated them. Seems to me if you want to excuse Wills losses to Sharkey and Uzcudun and his poor performance against Firpo, then you have to take away the credit he receives for defeating the black dynamite trio. And if you do that- his resume takes a huge hit and looks like his best wins are against men Dempsey already disposed of and in more impressive fashion. Basically cleans up some of Jack’s leftovers. Many Wills supporters want it both ways, excuse his losses but give him credit and a better resume than Dempsey by beating old past it heavies

 

I hold it against Dempsey that he sat on the heavyweight championship of the world for THREE YEARS without defending it.

That’s not what I call a champion.

 

Dempsey went Hollywood, he was making a fortune without getting in the ring understandable but inexcusable. Dempsey did not fight from September 1923 until September 1926 when he lost his title defending against Tunney.
In1924 Dempsey signed a million dollar deal with Universal Pictures for 10 films over 2 years.He was also appearing on the vaudeville circuit in NY.
That same year, [24] Dempsey was the highest paid athlete in the world ,without having a real fight.
In the 3 years Dempsey was inactive Wills beat 2 ranked contenders Weinert and Firpo.
Dempsey could have gone down the Joe Frazier route defending his title against 2 unranked journeymen, tying up the title for 2 years.Would that have been okay?
I ask because I never see anyone castigating Frazier for not fighting Ali or Foreman in 71 & 71.

 

Just thinking about Harry Wills (in a critical way).

Leaving aside the Dempsey no fight,

He didnt fight, Gene Tunney when both were top Contenders, he didnt fight George Godfrey, who would have been a lock for the no 1 contender to the colored Title, he didnt fight Harry Greb who many say should have been the no 2 conender to the world title, he didnt fight any of Dempseys leftovers other than Firpo and Willard who were both far removed than what they were when Dempsey fought them. He also didnt fight Jack Johnson who was arguably the best coloured fighter in the world, for a long time after he lost to Willard. When he was finally beaten, Wills didnt fight guys like Bearcat Wright or Lawson. He did fight Langford and Co, but he lost a bit and only started dominating when they got old.

He undoubtedly was a great fighter with a great record, and he deserved a shot, but when Dempsey retired for three years, he didnt step up to the plate and dominate the opposition like Frazier did when Ali retired, instead he chose to rest on his laurels and take the easy option and wait with low risk fights. When he ultimately did fight the best fighters again, he lost to Sharkey and Uzcuden. Ironically, if Dempsey did choose Wills instead of Tunney, as he probably should have, Hindsight and common opponents certainly suggests that Dempsey would have been dominant. It would have prolonged his career, probably. Without Tunney, or if Wills had eliminated Tunney, Dempsey probably would have went on to beat Wills, Sharkey, Heenan and maybe even Schmelling. Actually i can see Dempsey retiring as champ and then coming out of retirement in a mega fight with Carnera. A fight he could very, very easily actually win, even with the lay off.

 

great post brother!

 

Uhhhhhhh, he did on March 8, 1971 to be exact. W 15 Ali

 

And then he went 2 months off of 2 years without fighting a ranked contender.I know he fought Ali on March the 8th ,I'm hardly likely to forget it, its my partner's birthday!

 

Been there with him .. he's someone's alt ... notice how the accent in the writing changes with each post .. the question is does he know what he's getting into ?

 

"He also didn't fight Jack Johnson"

True, but the authorities prevented the fight.

Langford & McVea

I think Wills first won against Langford when Langford was 32. He first won against McVea when McVea was 31.

Rather than Willard above, I think you meant Fulton. Hard to see that Fulton & Firpo had really gone that far back in a year or two from when Dempsey beat them.

The problem with Wills is for most of his career he was limited to fighting other black fighters most of the time due to the color line. Holding this against him seems a bit unfair to me, although it is a fact.

I have noted in the past that Wills signed an open contract in 1924 with Rickard to meet anyone at all that Rickard chose with the winner to get Dempsey. Firpo was the opponent chosen and after winning Wills still did not get a shot at Dempsey. The aging Wills wanted Dempsey, not all the other names who were dredged up to sideline him. I can't blame him. He had been a top contender, often the obvious top contender, for a decade.

 

You’re making another straw man argument the point was if we are to excuse Wills’ losses to Sharkey and Uzcudun at age 31 then we should excuse the losses of Jeanette age 40, Langford age 31-32over 100 fights and Mcvey 31 over 80 fights when they fought Wills.

As for Dempsey/Greb - Greb didn’t knock out Fulton in one round or massacre the lineal champ Willard. Yes Carpenter avoided him like the plague but Jack also bombed him out in 4 round. Also Firpo Ko2 and Sharkey Ko7
Not quite the same as Wills getting shop worn Fulton, and old Firpo.
It’s unfortunate for Wills but he has a pretty straightforward career path, came up as big young fighter made his bones in an exhaustive series of round robins against over the hill and past prime name fighters, then fought mostly second raters and a couple of guys beat down by Dempsey. Then he became old (I guess I don’t know if he really was diminished) when Sharkey and Uzcudun pasted him.
Greb fought way more prime bodies than Wills did, and many more of the top names of the 1920s including Tunney, Gibbons, whom Wills missed through perhaps no fault of his own.
I freely admit Wills deserved his chance I just believe on closer inspection his resume isn’t as impressive as it initially appears. Greb also has a case for Dempsey. I fully believe Dempsey should of engaged at least one of them.
I didn’t live through the 20s but heavyweight champion of the world was prestigious I feel Dempsey and his team made him more of celebrity than an actual fighter once he reached the top. His title defenses even if the opponents were not the best were world stopping events. Different times.

 

Did Joe Frazier go THREE YEARS holding the title and not defending it? I don’t think so. He defended his title.

BTW, he DID fight Muhammad Ali in 1971 so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. And Foreman was fighting journeymen in 1971 and 72, marking time. He was still on the rise but was not at that point considered a huge threat to the title.

Dempsey basically retired ... without retiring. He could have given up the belt and said, “I’m an actor now” and let others fight for it. Then if he decided to fight again he could have stepped back into the fray at the top of the list no doubt because he (a) had not lost the title in the ring and (b) would bring by far the most money to the table.

Is there any case in boxing history of someone holding a world championship and not defending it for THREE YEARS???