The two Jack's title runs ( Johnson and Dempsey ). Top 10 opponents beaten.

Ground Hog Day yet again.

Groundhog Day yet again

ps Got to love those "excellent rakings"lol

 

I think it’s worth noting that

1. The art of modern matchmaking was in its infancy.

2. There were social/political reasons why top matches didn’t occur.

3. Johnson fought and beat these people he didn’t fight as a champion.

While interesting, don’t you think it’s weird to put 1910 boxing through a modern filter of of matchmaking, and drawing grand conclusions from it. Speaking of which, I’m not really clear what your conclusion is since it isn’t clearly stated, but the insinuation seems to be that Dempsey fought better opposition as champion. If he did, it’s not because of this Top 10 stuff.

Nonetheless an interesting analysis. Thank you for taking your time to compile it and share with us.

 

Demspey

 

Would it be fair to say that this is a heavyweight ('baddest man on the planet') phenomenon? I'm not trying to put a cat amongst the pigeons. Just asking.
(because it seems to me that the champions in other weights were more avtive). I've done no research here.

 

So Johnson would beat Dempsey in a boxing match?

 

You do a bit of ducks and drakes here.

You go down four places for Johnson. Why not for Dempsey with Greb in 1920. Dempsey didn't defend against Fulton, so why isn't he counted. (I don't think there was any demand or real reason for such a fight, as Dempsey had beaten him earlier, but he is in about the same position as Langford, Jeannette, and McVea. He had lost to the champion earlier. Seems to me if you keep counting not defending against McVea against Johnson, it only fair you also count not defending against Fulton against Dempsey)

These ratings show how much more impressive Johnson was than Dempsey.

1909--Johnson beat the next 5 rated fighters.
1910--Johnson beat 6 of the next 7 rated fighters
1911--Johnson beat 5 of the next 6 rated fighters.
1912--Johnson beat 5 of the next 8 rated fighters.
1913--Johnson fought 6 of the next 8 rated fighters.
1914--poorest showing, having only beaten the next 3 rated fighters.
1915--Johnson still beat 4 of 8, with Moran rated 3rd behind only Willard & Johnson.

The problem is that Johnson did in fact beat the best around, except for Gunboat Smith, but Smith was far short of Wills as a contender.

On this rating system, other than Willard, the best Dempsey beats are Fulton and Firpo who were also beaten by Wills, and were never considered the next best guy out there.

So the bottom line for me. Johnson in fact beat the best of his era for the most part. Dempsey didn't to the same degree at all.

Or put another way, Johnson is being criticized for not defending the title against fighters he had defeated. Dempsey is being criticized for not defending his title against fighters he never fought. This is a fair criticism of Johnson regarding his championship reign, but it is diluted when considering his overall historical placement.

 

This would tie in with America not being fussed about black boxers winning titles in lower weights, but as soon as a black man won the greatest prize of all, the heavyweight crown they started the White Hope movement.No such movements or campaigns accompanied the crowning of Joe Walcott, Dixie Kid,Joe Gans or George Dixon.

 

White Hopes came from every part of the US,no states were immune from the racism that motivated the search for a white challenger to beat Johnson.White America wanted Johnson to defend against white challengers which would necessarily give them a chance of seeing the black champion defeated and the status quo restored they had no interest in a black v black championship contest as the 3 major promoters all agreed Coffroth,Rickard, and Curley all said there was no money in such a contest although they put it rather more crudely than that.
In contrast Johnson received $31,500 for beating up Jim Flynn a man he had already stopped.The colour of Flynn's skin made this defence a viable proposition.
It's really about time you grasped the basic economics of this period of pugilistic history.God knows you have been told enough times!

Sorry you are wrong again.Johnson signed that contract to fight Langford in1908 before he became champion on the 26th of December of that year. When Johnson became champion he announced his asking price for a title defence would be $30,000 ,[barring no one,] the same price as Burns received to defend against him.
Johnson was 30 years old,he had chased Jeffries for years and been ignored, he had been forced to fight Burns for peanuts just to get his chance, now he wanted to cash in on his status as world champion.
The purse offered to fight Langford was £3000, substantially lower than Johnson's asking price as the new title-holder.
As champion Johnson felt that he now deserved bigger purses and his asking price was now $30,000.
Produce a verified offer of $30,000 for Johnson to defend against Jeannette,McVey ,or Langford that Johnson turned down.
I've challenged you top do so ,many, many times and you have yet to do so.
Clay Moyle,[ whose birthday it was the other day] is the acknowledged expert on Langford,he has stated in his opinion that prime for prime Johnson beats Langford.

 

In 1909, Johnson had beaten 9 of the top 10 fighters within the last 5 years (with only the low ranked Schrek missing out). He didnt beat Schreck but he had beaten Kaufman, Ross and Langford who were the three guys who had KOd Schreck at this time.

Plus, he had beaten the All active previous World Champion claimants, Burns, Fitzsimmons and O Brien (please dont try to argue he didnt beat O Brien). Not forgetting that he had already beaten every single fighter with a claim to the coloured world championship.

He had also beaten Fitzsimmons and Munroe, who were the only 2 of previous champion James Jeffries title challengers who were still active. Plus, in a year, he would knock out the previous undisputed world champion James J Jeffries.

At this point, i do not believe there has ever been a world champion who has stood as dominant over his top 10 opponents (as proven in the ring) as Jack Johnson was. This includes Joe Louis, Muhammed Ali, Wlad Klitchsko, Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson. Actually, you could probably add the likes of Greb, Robinson, Pep, Charles, Monzon, Leonard, and anyone else you can think of.

It is true that, like every single other champion, he slowed down once he had actually claimed the title. Though unlike the others he had a pretty big political push against him.

Looking at the last year Mendoza has quoted, he still holds victories over 6 of the top 10 fighters (with himself included in the top 10). This is nothing short of astounding. Pretty sure you will find most of the greats i mentioned have only ever proved a similar level of dominance for short periods of time. Johnson had done it for about 10 years. Plus he would go another 10 years before losing another fight! No one had the longevity of Jack Johnson