Is Archie Moore a Top Fifteen Heavyweight from 1900 - 1960 ?

I was thinking more in terms of styles.

Jim Braddock and Tommy Loughran and Tommy Farr didn't beat Max Baer by standing in front of Baer and fighting out of a crouch. They MOVED. In and out. When they weren't punching, they tried to move out of range.

Style matters in this instance.

Archie Moore stayed in range. He bent at the waist. He often fought with a cross arm defense like Ken Norton. He didn't dance and move in and out.

Archie Moore standing in the pocket, bending at the waist and beating Bob Baker and Nino Valdes doesn't mean he could get hammered in the head for 15 rounds against Max Baer. They weren't Max Baer. They didn't punch like Max Baer.

And you could count on one hand the number of guys Moore fought who weighed 200+ pounds.

I'm not saying Moore sucked or anything like that. He was an all-time great. But I wouldn't put him in the top 15 heavyweights from 1900 to 1960.

IMO, his style would get him killed, frankly, against most of the best heavyweights during that time. Like it did when he actually fought the best heavyweights of his time - Charles, Marciano and Patterson. They all knocked him out. And none of them were on the "big" side. They were the same size as Moore.

 

Rubbish, Baer was 21 when he lost to Kennedy and Schaaf,he stopped Kennedy in the rematch and beat Schaaf.
He was 22 when he lost to Loughran and Risko , he beat Risko a few months later.He was also only 22 when he lost a 20 rounder to Paulino .He wasn't prime for any of those fights and he avenged 3 of them .He never fought Davies either. Prime Loughran just might jab Moore's kisser off , as he did Baer and Braddock,don't be too sure Moore beats Farr or Schaaf either.

 

The title of the thread is 1900 to 1960.

Tommy Loughran was one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time, beat a number of heavyweight champs, and lost to Carnera. Because Carnera was too big for him.

 

Leonard Morrow knocked out Moore in one round in 1948 (Moore was 32 at the time).

 

"Jim Braddock and Tommy Loughran and Tommy Farr didn't beat Max Baer by standing in front of him and fighting out of a crouch."

No. But Paulino Uzcudun did. And the fact is that Baer plowed through a lot of rounds with guys who didn't move around that much, like Heeney and Levinsky. Also, none of the guys mentioned had anything like Moore's punching ability, either in power or punching in combination.

Moore lost to Charles, Patterson, and Ali, but this might point to his kryptonite being speed rather than size or power.

 

Great! I didn't say Primo would be lock to win. I said fighting out of the crouch Moore might not even be able to beat Carnera.

Considering Moore never fought anyone remotely that size, who knows. Tommy Loughran was considered one of the greatest light heavys ever and beat future champs, and in a title defense Carnera outpointed him rather easily because Loughran was too damn small.

Moore making himself EVEN SMALLER by fighting in the crouch isn't going to help Archie.

 

"And you could count on one hand the number of guys Moore fought who weighed more than 200 lbs."

If your hand holds a calculator.

Here is a list of the fights with guys over 205 lbs. that Moore beat.

Abel Cestac (2)--223, 225
Embrell Davidson--210
Leonard Dugan--209
Nino Valdes--210, 215
Al Spaulding--210
Bob Baker--209
Willie Bean--211
George Palmentier--233 (Moore's biggest opponent. 6' 6" tall)
James Parker--211
Hans Kalbfell--211
Bob Albright--225
Sterling Davis--212*
Alejandro Lavorante--211
Mike Dibiase--230*

So Moore fought 14 fights against men who weighed more than 205 lbs. I don't count Davis & Dibiase as actual fighters.

Here are the men over 205 lbs. Joe Louis defeated.

Jack O'Dowd--210
Stanley Poreda--208
Primo Carnera--260
Max Baer--210
Paulino Uzcudun--207
Jorge Brescia--206
Steve Ketchell--216
Tony Galento--233
Abe Simon--254, 255
Buddy Baer--237, 250

So Joe Louis fought 12 fights against men over 205 lbs. This is more than the listed fights against men that heavy that Dempsey fought.

Quality aside, I don't see criticizing Moore for not beating big men. And several of these guys were ranked at one time or another among the top five heavyweights.

 

In his 220 fights, Moore knocked out 11 boxers who weighed more than 200 pounds.

THREE OF THE 11 (Roy Shire, Sterling Davis and Mike Dibiase) were professional wrestlers making their "boxing debuts" and never boxed again. So who knows how on the level those three were.

Moore had great punching ability when he was fighting middleweights and light heavyweights. Not so much when he was fighting 200 pounders.

Most of the top heavyweights from 1900 to 1960 weren't middleweights or light heavys.

 

Actually you couldn’t. Moore went 22-1 with 19 knockouts against men 200lb or more

 

I believe the only rated heavyweights he knocked out were Bob Baker and James Parker. And Baker and Parker aren't among the top heavyweights from 1900 to 1960.

Would you even rate them in your top 100 heavyweights from 1900 to 1960?

Please. Don't give me this.

Moore was an all-time great. I don't want to bash him, but he wasn't among the top 15 HEAVYWEIGHTS during the first 60 years of the 20th century.

There were, I believe, 19 heavyweight champions from 1900 to 1960, and I wouldn't favor Moore over 15 of them, let alone ALL THE CONTENDERS who never won a title from 1900 to 1960 on top of that.

He's not top 15. Not at heavyweight.

 

Loughran had no punching power at all, and did not have a threatening right. He was all jab and move, which given his lack of height and size seems to me to play into Carnera's strengths. Carnera certainly might prove too big for Moore, but Moore would carry the fight to him, which I think a small guy has to do to beat Carnera.

"Tommy Loughran was considered one of the greatest light heavys ever and beat future champs"

Few consider consider him a better light heavy than Moore. As for future champs, I don't see Loughran as a likely winner over the Charles and Patterson who beat Moore, let alone Marciano and Ali. Moore didn't get a chance to fight Braddock at 175, nor an aging Sharkey who lost that year to King Levinsky. These champions aren't exactly at the same level as the champions who defeated Moore.

 

A light heavyweight fight. Doesn’t count at heavyweight.


FYI, Moore nearly put morrow in a coma for the rematch

 

Yes, an assortment of pro wrestlers, journeyman and Bob Baker.

Stats guy.

 

How convenient of you to leave out Nino Valdes who was rated number 1 in the world and happened to be a really big guy.

Since when does Decision victories over big men not count?

You’re telling me Moore couldn’t decision guys like baer sharkey carnera willard Corbett fitzsimmons Johansson, etc?

 

Bob Baker and Nino Valdes. Both would easily crack a top 50 heavyweights of all time list 1900-1960

Big men with skills who could punch

Valdes defeated Ezzard Charles prior to Charles incredible effort vs a prime Marciano