Would Bowe have battered Witherspoon?

I'll have a pound of what you are on. Holyfield comfortably outpointed Holmes, Witherspoon lost a razor close one to him.

Please.

 

I didn’t say Evander had a harder fight did I, I just said he had a hard fight against Holmes. Which he did. Who knows? If Witherspoon ever could have got into the same shape as Evander he might have flattened Holyfields version of Larry like Tyson did.

 

You said, and i quote - "Evander had as hard a fight with a much more faded Larry Holmes than the version Tim fought."

Evander did not have as hard a fight with Holmes as Witherspoon did - an outright lie.

Witherspoon would not have flattened the Holmes Evander fought.

 

Oh that’s wrong, sorry I meant “still had a hard fight”. Of course it wasn’t as hard a fight. It was simply hard. I apologise for that blunder none the less and I shall amend it.

Previously I had said Evander laboured with old timers Larry and Bald George. which he did.

 

Spoon had a great overhand right but Bowe would shoulder roll with it and counter with a right uppercut to the body like he did vs Holyfield.
And would win the inside exchanges.

Bowe UD... He might stop Whiterspoon if he hurts him, Bowe had that killer instict

 

All good.

Holyfield may have "laboured" a bit in parts but overall he decisively defeated two still dangerous and very awkward opponents. 3 1/2 years later Foreman was still good enough to knock Moorer out. The fight prior Holmes had beaten the unbeaten Ray Mercer who may have even been top 5 at the time.

I view these as very decent wins.

 

well yes, I am not saying those two were not difficult opponents, but at the time these wins were not seen as impressive at all. In fact the reverse was true. These were both openly called old timers and regarded as kind of “seniors on tour” gimmicks and not taken seriously.

Later, Mercer taking Lewis to a tough fight and Bald George beating Moorer gave Holyfields earlier struggles with the two old timers more lustre. But another way of looking at it is to relegate Moorer and Lewis to guys of a similar level as Holyfield was regarded at the time he was accused of making hard work of two old chancers.

Sometimes the political situation and career timing can make one era look so much better when the truth could be ...could be.. that the era was just ”different”.

This is why I have reservations about launching the Holyfeild and Bowe era into a higher stratosphere. I believe Lewis was the ATG of that period but no more than say Larry was also higher in relation to his rival belt holders of his time.

 

And may even have upset him.

 

Bowe would have beaten him but had some trouble, Bowe was easy to hit and neither of them set a torid pace. They both fought at sporatically and slowed down and hugged and leaned and exchanged. This is not a fight I would have went out of my way to see. Both men were solid, strong and somewhat flexable but both men were lazy fighters. Bowe w12

 

As I said before, the difference between "looking good" against Larry and "looking good" against Lewis is simply handling power.

Lewis is not ahead of Holmes, but if we keep the Smith debacle in mind, I just don´t see either Bowe or Holyfield losing like that. Holyfield would have never made an heavyweight ATG if he could not handle power. Give that toughness to Seldon or Hide, you´ll create something special. Bowe showed in other fights beside knocking out Holydield very good power in two hands also. What does it tell us? Bowe was a solid puncher. Bowe had a solid chin. If fighter A brings power as well a whiskers over fighter B to the table, its very unlikely fighter B beeing the better fighter in the heavyweight devision.
Bowe was simply the better fighter when in shape and above the random 80s fellows, which where also good boxers.

I consider Bowes best weight 228-235, which is 15-20 pound heavier than Holyfield. But why knock on Holyfields door for beeing "tiny"? He was not. He was always trimmed and tough as nails.

 

NO

Witherspoon had a good defense and chin.

Still, Bowe is naturally a bit bigger.

The key would be if Witherspoon could take away Bowe's jab.

If he can, he can win this.

Bowe was worse defensively than Holmes, who Witherspoon greatly troubled when he took away Holme's jab.

But, Bowe could be fairly busy.

It's a hard call, but Witherspoon by decision.

Bowe is just too easy to find, and Witherspoon could punish him.

 

Foreman was certainly not seen as a gimmick after Holyfield. He received heaps of praise and one mags headlines said he was no joke.

Holmes had worked his way to number 1 contender with his win over Mercer and tho he had few backers everyone knew what a wily cunning old fox he was. He fought a spoiling type fight that no-one other than Mike Tyson was probably going to look good against.

The bottom line is both these guys were good wins. The next to bottom line is that Holyfield beat both guys very easily on reputable scorecards even if it was hard going in the ring.

 

Ocasio managed fine with Lewis’s power but not so well against Larrys power. Look, I know Lewis was a huge puncher. Overall he demonstrated he was the better fighter in the 1990s. Better than Bowe. But Witherspoon had a great defence and chin. Tim took Bruno’s power. Good fighters can take the power away from the guys they fight. This statement that “the difference between looking good against Holmes and Lewis is handling power” only stands up if Lewis can do everything as well and as often as Larry. And Kewis could not. Larry had a much higher ratio of punches landed to punches missed than probably any other heavyweight. And he threw a whole lot more than Lewis, could be a lot more nimble too.

Tim was a failure and let himself down against Smith the second time. Absolutely. But bare in mind how absolutely thoroughly Witherspoon beat Smith the first time. Smith was so much more outclassed by Witherspoon than smith ever was by Larry Holmes and mike Tyson that you would not believe it. Smith could have been stopped by Tim at any time on the outclassed rule during their first fight.

its more than toughness that makes great fighters. You could give all the toughness in the world to herbie hide and Bruce Seldon they still would not make the grade because they never did translate what they could do to lesser fighters to good fighters. They would just be tougher guys who still can’t beat good fighters.

yes Bowe showed with huge size advantages, match making, the right career timing that he could hit smaller guys harder than they could hit him. Well done.

how solid was it? Evander Holyfeild was not a huge puncher yet he practically knocked Bowe out with a single hook. The fight could have been waved off without a count like Williams was against Tyson. Then there is the way Bowe crumbled against Golota, a man crushed by Lennox and Tyson.

well you say that, but the biggest test Bowe ever had was a 30lb smaller guy that he also lost to. He wasn’t challenging Larry Holmes. He wasn’t fighting Frank Bruno. He wasn’t fighting even Page who all would not be giving away that kind of size.

because Evander was tiny. He was a 185 pounder on a very advanced version of a charles Atlas programme to become much bigger. So much so that all his hair fell out and he picked up heart problems.

yes, Holyfeild was a real tough, tough guy to be tangling with such a big guy.

 

Foreman was given credit for surviving Holyfeild but at the cost of Holyfeilds reputation. It refelected very badly on Holyfield for ages. In fact what made Holyfield was beating Tyson and revenging his loss with Moorer so emphatically. and that all came after his series with Bowe.

I’m not sure beating Mercer made Larry number 1 contender to Holyfeild because you had Lewis and Bowe, Tucker and Rudduck all active at that time. Mercer fought none of them. Excluding himself, neither had Riddick fought Any of those guys.

I agree with this. Against most people, at his absolute ageing worst, Larry was still capable of spoiling his way through fights without getting himself knocked out. Even Butterbean.

both these guys became good wins. They were not good regarded wins worth boasting about at the time. Two old men. Has beens. In fact they got more credit than Holyfeild did out of them.

yes Holyfeild was expected to win easier than ever needing reputable scorecards. This is quite damning for any champion.

its the hard going part that hurt Holyfields reputation at that time though. This is my point. These wins were painted into good wins as time went on. But how far from the truth were they at the time? Old guys, hustling to decision losses with a former cruiserweight.

 

Holyfield was still considered the top dog all the way thru to the loss vs Bowe well later. Even after the Bowe fight he was still highly regarded as was Bowe.

Many top heavyweight champs have struggled to gain critical acceptance for the longest time Larry Holmes being the prime example. Even Ali took some time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Beating Mercer certainly got Larry the shot. The abc organisations ratings seldom matched the much more reputable Rings.

Well he had a fine chin and huge experience. When guys like this fight somewhat negatively they are hell to move.

The fact of the matter is that we now know beyond doubt they were good wins. Yes Holyfield wasn't going to wow people with them at that time but they were sensational business decisions as he got tens of millions from these two bouts treading water until the bigger risks were taken on. He got the business done then went big.

It's funny you should say this because i see you defending the likes of Louis and Marciano till the cows come home for poor performances against supposedly sub par opposition. They both had their good share that's for sure.

Great heavyweights didn't end at Larry Holmes you know? You hold the champs post Holmes up to an absurdly different standard and it is as transparent as glass.

And the hard going part hurt Marciano, Louis, Holmes et al in various bouts before Holyfields era too. True appreciation usually comes over time and it was no different for Holyfield.