Jeffries cleans out the division as champion

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 2, 2018.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Using Matt's excellent yearly rankings, how did Jeffries do as champion? Did he fight the best out there regarding opponents that were highly rated, or did he avoid them in favor of easier marks?

    Green = Defeated in a title match
    Yellow = Draw.
    Red = Loss.

    1899
    Champion Jeffries
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    4. Maher
    5. McCoy
    6. Corbett
    7. Kennedy
    8. Ruhlin
    9. Childs
    10. Martin

    1900
    Champion Jeffries
    2 Fitzsimmons
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    4 McCoy
    5 Ruhlin
    6 Sharkey
    7 Childs
    8 Maher
    9 Kennedy
    10 Martin


    1901
    Champion Jeffries
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    3 McCoy
    4 Childs
    5 Sharkey
    6 Root
    7 Martin
    8 Maher
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    10 Gardner


    1902
    Champion Jeffries
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    3 Ruhlin
    4 Martin
    5 Johnson
    6 Gardner
    7 O’Brien
    8 Root
    9 Hart
    10 Carter


    1903
    Champion Jeffries
    2 Fitzsimmons
    3 Johnson
    4 Ruhlin
    5 Gardner
    6 Root
    7 Hart
    8 O'Brien
    9 Armstrong
    10 McVey


    1904
    Champion Jeffries
    2 Johnson
    3 Hart
    4 Root
    5 O’Brien
    6 Gardner
    7 Ruhlin
    8 Ferguson
    9 Martin
    10 McVey

    I'd argue Munroe, who 10-1-1. with wins over Sharkey, Maher and a draw with Griffin should be rated in 1904, but okay. 1904 was Jeffries last year of activity until he came back in 1910.

    From 1899-1900. Jeffries fought and beat the #1 guy, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, and Corbett in slightly less than one years time. Such a feat, I think has never been duplicated in Heavyweight boxing. Simply amazing.

    Historians alive from 1890-1960, generally view Corbett and Fitzsimmons as All-time top ten greats, and Sharkey was good enough to make the hall of fame.

    Cap it off with beating Ruhlin, and you could argue Jeffries faced four #1 ranked guys in a row, make that 5 #1 rated opponents in a row with the Fitzsimmons rematch in 1902.
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Those rating are of course subjective but lets take them .

    Johnson
    1902.no 5 Jeffries defends against Fitzsimmons who has not fought for 2 years.
    1903.no 3 Jeffries defends against unranked Corbett.
    1904.no 2 Jeffries defends against unranked Munroe.

    In1900 Jeffries defends his title against unranked John Finnegan in April and no3 Corbett in May.
    That same year Bob Fitzsimmons ko's Ruhlin 6rds no5 and Sharkey no6 2rds in the space of two weeks This is in August .
    Jeffries next defends his title in Sept1901
    His opponent is unranked Joe Kennedy, his sometime sparring partner ,he again defends his title in Nov, his opponent Gus Ruhlin whom Fitzsimmons has nearly killed the previous year.

    Fitzsimmons?
    After koing both Sharkey and Ruhlin in the space of two weeks in1900, he gets his chance against Jeffries in 1902 two years later!

    Using the rankings supplied, those ranked that Jeffries did not fight ,choosing instead to defend instead against coming out of retirement fighters[2] and unranked fighters [3] are as follows.
    Mcvey
    Johnson
    Childs
    Griffin
    Root
    Gardner
    Martin
    McCoy
    O Brien
    Hart
    Carter
    Ferguson
    Maher
    Those are 13 men ranked in his title reign that he did not defend against, instead giving rematches to 4 men he had already fought, and 3 of whom he had already beaten.
    That does not qualify as my definition of ,"cleaning out the division."
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I think Fitz was #1 in 1902 after losing to Jeffries, he came back strong icing Ruhlin and Sharkey. Nothing wrong here.

    Corbett deserved a re-match based on the first fight and got one. Having already beaten three guys on the list on the 1903 rankings, ( Fitz, Corbett, Armstrong ), why not? Most champions have an unranked title opponent or two, but as long as they faced the best before, which Jeffries did, I'm okay with it.

    Munroe I think should be top 10 in 1904, Matt doesn't see it that way.

    Jeffries said he'd fight Hart after he bet Johnson in in 1905 if the public wanted it ( Live gate ) but the demand was low, with most people thinking I'm not going to pay a lot of money for a blow out. Too bad there wasn't enough demand, or it would have been another #1 ranked defeated as champion.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree, although I wouldn't give Munro the rankings personally.

    We now know he should have just taken on Johnson in 1904 but it's got its difficulties and he wasn't to see how things were to pan out. I'd favour Jeffries in 1904.

    I'd argue that Matt's got this about right and I'd argue that Jeffries title reign is arguably beyond reporach.

    I'd also argue that the opposition wasn't really there for him.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    After koing both Ruhlin 6rds ,and Sharkey 2 rds in the space of an August fortnight in1900 ,how could Fitzsimmons then not be the consensus number one challenger in the rest of 1900 and the next year, no one beat him?
     
  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My issue though is, there was competition there that Jeff didn't face because he drew the color line. It's true the competition really wasn't there, but I'd preface that with, white competition wasn't there during his title run. However, there was competition he didn't face for his personal reason. I also don't think Jeffries beat Johnson in 1904 but who knows.
     
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  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My take is that Jeff cleaned out the division through 1902,

    but by 1903 there was Johnson and Jeff didn't defend against him.

    So I wouldn't say he is above reproach. But the criticisms of what Jeff did prior to 1903 I don't see as very pointed or valid.

    I give Jeff a pass on the 2nd Corbett fight. I think it a fight folks at the time wanted, regardless of how this defense is viewed over a century later.

    Looking at all the championship reigns prior to Joe Louis, I think on balance Jeff had the best. His failure to defend against Johnson was less egregious on balance than the ducks or inactivity of later champs.
     
  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Jeffries had already beaten him by KO, though.
     
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  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes 3 years earlier . If he wanted to rematch Fitz why didn't he do it in 1900 or early 1901 instead of defending his title against Ruhlin whom Fitz had half killed the year previously?
     
  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Considering Ruhlin had fought Jeffries to a draw early in his career, and had a recent KO over Sharkey, as well as being a bit inconsistant, I'd still consider Gus a very legit choice of challenger.

    This is getting to a level of nitpicky that could make any champion look bad. Complaining about him not giving a rematch soon enough when champions either side of him went through absurdly low activity, and not giving contenders, who were outstanding for years, a shot at all.
     
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  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    The consensus is the behavior of his predecessors, and the times made mixed race title matches dicey in the early 1900's. The only one to do it was Tommy Ryan in 1899, defending his middle weight title. There might be another example...not sure.

    However, Jeffries did beat Hank Griffin, Peter Jackson, and Bob Armstrong, three known top African American fighters of the time before he became champion, and did face Hank Griffin as lineal champion in 1901, flooring him a few times. So technically he did cross the line as champion in 1901. If by some fluke Hank Griffin, who had beaten Jack Johnson in 1901, defeated Jeffries by knock out, Griffin is the new champion.

    There are reported KO wins for Jeffries over Martin and Childs. Never saw a fight report on either. If they happened, I wonder when.

    What boxers say and do when there is enough money can quickly change. As for 1904, Jeffries vs. Johnson, are you kidding me? Johnson could not deal with Hart, losing in 1905 so how would he last vs. Jeffries in 1904? Had Johnson KO'd Hart in 1905 ( stay with me on this hypothetical ), and there was a Reno like purse for Jeffries ( $100,000.00 ),who knows if he takes the match or not.

    No one felt Hart would beat Jeffries. I guess if Hart happened to be black, Jeffries would not get the same pass, but if there was enough money Jeffries said he'd meet Hart.

    As for Johnson he was Ko'd by Choysnki in 1901. Something tells me the Fitzsimmons Jeffries fought would have also beaten Johnson from 1900-1903.

    Corbett in 1900, might have out boxed Johnson as well, and Sharkey who I view as better than Choynski also would have likely beaten Johnson in the late 1890's to 1900.

    The consensus here is Jack Johnson became better around 1906-1908, but that time the old guard was gone, replaced by the likes of O'Brien, Hart, and Burns. Johnson in three matches vs these guys is 1-1-1 if you count the news draw with O'Brien, and no historian I ever saw says the above three men ( O'Brien, Hart, and Burns ) were in the same class of Fitz, Corbett or Sharkey.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    The draw appears be iffy as it was meet with hisses and boo's. Ruhlin was down in round four. Jeffries was the better in the second half, and had Ruhlin down and out in the final round, but Ruhlin was saved by the bell!

    [url]https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SDU18970717.2.69[/url]
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Nope,its a rebuttal that Jeffries cleaned out the division,he didn't and he bypassed Johnson for 3 consecutive year and fought lower/ unranked men instead.
    Fitzsimmons, at the end of 1900 had ko wins over Corbett,Maher,Sharkey,and Ruhlin.
    Who had a better claim to a title shot?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  14. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He never met the black heavyweight champion, so there is no way I could ever excersising the idea that Jeffries 'cleaned out' the division, regardless if it wasn't his fault or not
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Wait a second, are you saying Jeffries didn't clean out the division? He most certainly did from 1899-1901. I think the entire board agrees on that. I'm not sure if anyone cleaned out their top 3 contenders as fast in the history of the division.

    Fitzsimmons was not easy to negotiated with, but he got his re-match. After beating Fitz in 1899, Corbett was in line next. Then Jeffries fought Ruhlin in 1901 ( Rated #1 by Matt ) and then Fitz in 1902.

    Asking any champion to fight their #1 and #2 in the same year, seems a bit much to ask, yet your asking for it and we saw it from 1899-1900!

    Johnson was bypassed? Maybe in 1904, but as soon as he lost to Hart in 1905, he went down in ranking. the interesting thing to note is Jeffries after blowing out Munroe, and losing money in the process considered Johnson as a possible title opponent in the press.