If Patterson had faced Zora Folley in 1959?

it is easy to say something like that. Of course Foley was entitled to a shot, but look at the timeline. Jackson was #1 contender and the logical contender when Patterson fought him. Because of tax reasons champions could only fight so many times. to save money on camps Floyd stayed in camp after the Jackson fight and took a farce of a fight with Radmacher, this was not at the expense of any other contenders because he had just dealt with his #1 just days earlier. Floyds next fight was fully intended to be against the highest ranked most logical contender so #1 and #2 Foley And Machen fought an official eliminator to determine who that actually was. But they stank the place out with such a lousy draw that left nobody further forward in regards as to who was the logical contender to Floyd between them. What was Floyd supposed to do? Stay idle and Wait until a Machen and Foley rematch (that nobody wanted to see again) found a logical challenger for him to fight and when the outdoor stadiums next became available -or simply fight the next best available contender rated #3?

After that Patterson was booked to meet a logical contender the following summer. Again for tax reasons they wanted two fights from one camp, a lesser tune up first, then the #1 contender just weeks apart. Foley did not qualify on either count during that window. Zora had lost his previous fight to Cooper which eliminated him from logical status. A Cooper defence fell through as the tune up so Patterson was left with no other decision to take one either of the other top contenders who had all lost their previous fight. London, Pastrano, Machen or Foley before he fought ingemar Johansson who had just knocked Machen to smithereens inside one round. After Cooper, London was the only other top contender who had beaten either of these four men. He had beat pastrano where as foley was 0-1-1 at that from the men within the group.

yes but nobody knew foley was going to knock Cooper out in the future. A decision needed to be made as to who was going to meet the champion before he fought Ingo. By the time foley beat Cooper in a rematch Patterson was not even champion anymore.

yes, for some reason it has become acceptable to say D amato kept Floyd clear of all the dangerous heavyweights in the late 50s but look at the timeline. Moore #1, Jackson #1, Harris #3, London #5, Ingo #1.

floyd saught Machen and Cooper to make amends as soon as he could. Unbelievably Floyd even wanted a third fight with Sonny. He was not scared of anybody.

 

Floyd took on the guy who had massacred Machen. That must qualify as a dangerous HW. The most dangerous until Liston entered the scene.

I agree that it would have been nice if Floyd had defended against either Machen or Folley, though. But Harris with London as an added bonus were decent defenses as well for that year.

 

Not only were Machen and Folley rated much higher than Harris London Radmacher and mcneeey but they were much much better fighters as well

 

Your logic of # 1 and # 2 contenders fighting to a draw, so they both get bypassed for contender # 3 is the worst logic I have ever seen on this forum

 

It was the logic shared by Cus. He said Machen and Foley eliminated each other. Take it up with him and everybody else back then.

In those days they searched for a logical challenger. A decisive winner. Right now Wilder would be AJs logical challenger. It means the logical contender is the second best heavyweight in the world. That’s what the fans wanted to see back then. They wanted to know who the second best was so they could see him challenge a champion. The best against the second best. In order to find that out an eliminator was supposed to produce a decisive winner who could represent the worlds biggest threat to Patterson. But it produced nothing of the kind. after that draw, they couldn’t know who the second best was could they? The fight sucked so bad nobody cared.

What was floyd supposed to do? He needed to fill a ballpark that summer against somebody the fans cared about seeing. After that draw neither of those two guys attracted any extra appeal. Nobody would have cared enough to want to see either Machen or Foley in a title fight or anywhere else. No decisive winner. And Floyd was ready to fight. Why should he have to wait around for them to do it all again? Why when the next guy, Harris still looked like an exciting draw?

The next winning contender had the added charisma of being a Texan from “cut and shoot” Texas. It’s obvious in the absence of a logical challenger fans were more excited about seeing a challenger who won his last fight rather than one contender who was just in a fight where neither he nor his opponent looked good enough to win it.

 

The ring had him ranked nr 4 according to Boxrec, which seems pretty strange since he had just beat their nr 3: Willie Pastrano. You'd expect him to be nr 3 at least based on that win.

And this is how Boxrec quotes Sports Illustrated about the fight: "It took the champion 12 bloody, bruising rounds to beat Harris, the best of the three men he has met since winning the title and very likely the second-best heavyweight." (my cursive)

Yes, Folley and Machen were slightly higher ranked and taking on one of them would therefore have been slightly better, but Harris was legit. And the next year Floyd took on the guy who had destroyed Machen, so it seems far fetched that he and D'Amato would be that scared of him.

 

Your mind really is warped. This might be some of your "best" material yet.

I hope mcgrain and John Thomas is reading his for a good laugh

 

You just admitted folley and Machen were rated higher than Harris. Good. So we've established they definitely deserved title shots above Harris? Good.

"Slightly better". Folley and Machen were significantly better than Roy Harris. Harris twice got knocked out by bob cleroux, whom folley pitched a 10 round shutout against.

For every 1 sports illustrated article you post, I could post about 10 articles stating Machen and Folley were the two overwhelmingly best contenders in 1957

 

Admitted? When did I contend they weren't?

Those losses came later. In 1958 Harris was unbeaten and came off of victories over Baker and Pastrano. So, no, if we look at what they achieved at that time I see nothing that shows that Folley and Machen were significantly better.

To conclude: In 1957 Floyd faced the nr 1 contender, in 1958 he faced the nr 3 or 4, in 1959 he faced the nr 1 contender. I see little evidence of him taking a very padded route. Especially not as he faced the man who destroyed one of the men he's accused of ducking.

 

This is perfect. This is exactly what they had to go on. Of course it is Unfortunate some people cannot accept this and fully expect the people of the past to have been able to look into the future and already know that unbeaten Harris was not as good as Foley because one day later on he might lose to men foley beat...

 

How convenient of you to leave out the joke defenses against London Radmacher and mcneeley

And like you said Folley and Machen were rated higher and far more dangerous boxers than Harris. Every boxing writer of that era thought so

Harris getting the shot over Machen and Folley was wrong

 

So Harris earned his title shot by sitting at home while the number 1 and 2 contenders fought each other?

Did Harris beat either foley or Machen to leapfrog them?

I don’t think so

Admit it chokelab Machen of Foley deserved the shot over Harris

 

With hindsight of course, we now know Machen and Zora were better than Harris. So I would have liked Foley and Machen to have fought Patterson of course. I just understand why it did not happen. Nobody’s fault.

I don’t think it unreasonable that Harris sitting at home unbeaten whilst the number one and number two fought to an unresolved verdict (that irritated people) justifiably helped the Harris cause.

 

Fwiw...

National Boxing Association ratings –
(as of May 1958)

Champion: Floyd Patterson
1. Eddie Machen
2. Zora Folley
3. Roy Harris
4. Willie Pastrano
5. Alex Miteff
6. Ingemar Johansson
7. Nino Valdes
8. Cleveland Williams
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Pat McMurtry

National Boxing Association ratings – via Google News
(as of July 31, 1958)

Champion: Floyd Patterson
1. Zora Folley
2. Eddie Machen
3. Roy Harris
4. Willie Pastrano
5. Nino Valdez
6. Ingemar Johansson
7. Mike DeJohn
8. Alex Miteff
9. Pat McMurtry
10. George Chuvalo


National Boxing Association ratings – via Google News
(as of November 5, 1958)

Champion: Floyd Patterson
1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Brian London
3. Nino Valdez
4. Zora Folley
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Eddie Machen
7. Henry Cooper
8. Roy Harris
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Sonny Liston

 

Thank you. This endorses everything I have said.