Jeffries cleans out the division as champion

Not sure if you're being serious with some of this or just disingenuous. There are NUMEROUS examples of the lineal championship not being on the line for some fights and on for others. This was a common occurrence back then. The title wasn't always on the line, and that is a known fact. So to say for certain it was, is being blatantly disingenuous.

Because pre-1900 Johnson wasn't in his prime, so it doesn't matter who would do what to Johnson in that time frame. Nobody is talking about Johnson having a shot in 1899 or 1900 or 1901 or 1902. So that Johnson has no place in the conversation. The Johnson would could've gotten a shot 1903-1904, beats Sharkey and convincingly so at that.

I didn't say Sharkey wasn't prime, I said Corbett and Fitz weren't, and they weren't. Corbett's best performance wasn't at 33, it was against Sullivan or Jackson, not Jeffries. A past his prime Jeffries outboxing Jeffries for 20 rounds doesn't mean it's your best performance, it simply shows Jeffries limitations to some degree.

Jeffries wasn't the same pressure fighter Hart was. Jeffries was more of a patient stalker/counterpuncher than he was a pressure fighter. Even in the videos you see, he's not pressuring the guy relentlessly around the ring by any means. He's doing his usual leaning to the side, with head cocked to the side, and slowly moving forward looking for openings. That is not what I call a pressure fighter. He was good to the body, and they both have that, but it's not a good comparison. The way to beat Johnson isn't to let him set and turn it into a slow methodical boxing match. Jeff isn't winning that type of fight against Johnson imo.

Right, Oscar won that fight regardless of what people saw as running. The fight is scored on a round by round basis. Oscar had won enough rounds to get the job done, simple, and he was robbed. That isn't a good example to use. Johnson was clearly in control of the fight, and the reports make mention that he was a class above Hart and when he choose to, dominated him. That's good enough for me.

All the fights you mention, Johnson wasn't prime, and yet you think these are good examples. They aren't, they are Mr. Fantastic type of reaching going on.

 

A young Johnson was for a time a Sharkey sparring partner,verified accounts state he embarrassed the Tar ,picking him off as he wildly lunged in and straightening him up with nicely timed uppercuts.
A prime Johnson would have minced Sharkey.

 

I am talking prime for prime, as I always do.

 

I don't need to show you anybody getting KO'd or not, I'm stating a simple and unquestioned fact, titles aren't always on the line. There are numerous examples of champions wanting to hold onto the belt so they make a fight not for the title, or claim that unless they are KO'd the title won't change hands etc etc. This was a common occurrence then and even many years later we see champions fight, but not have the title on the line. Dejesus clearly beat Duran the first time they met, but he wasn't awarded the title because it was a non-title fight. Thus no, it isn't a given that the lineal title was on the line, and even if it was (it wasn't), do you honestly think the powers that be back then would've went through it? Come on

There was a window for Jeffries to fight Johnson, and he chose not to do so. Those are the simple facts. Were there some reasons for that, sure, but there were also reason why he could've and should've

I know exactly what I said, and I simply wasn't clear in excluding Sharkey. You listed those three men, so I kept listing those three men so you know what topic I was discussing. I meant Fitz and Corbett weren't prime when Jeffries beat them, in any of their fights, they simply weren't prime fighters.

The men Jeffries beat before were better? No they weren't. The Hart that fought Johnson was better than the Corbett who faced Jeffries the second time, and ditto for Fitz the second time. Munro wasn't better, and I'd submit that version of Gus wasn't better. The point is, how Hart did against Johnson isn't indicative of how Jeffries would do, because they didn't fight the same way. As you admit, Hart pressured Johnson and was in his chest the whole time. Jeffries didn't fight this way. You know this, so whatever success Hart had is irrelevant if they don't much alike. Further, Johnson was likely trying to play it safe and insure he got the title shot he felt he deserved. That would be in STARK contrast to how Johnson would approach fighting the champion in Jeffries. As we saw, he went for it a lot more than he did against Hart. So again, your comparison falls flat on its face

It has nothing to do with suiting my preference. I believe the modern scoring system is better than the older ones, and the governing bodies agree with that assessment. It's the same reason why I feel like it should be obvious Walcott won even more clear considering this fact. His 2 KD's weren't 10-8 rounds, and if they were, there could be no way Louis has any chance of walking away with the title. Same thing with Johnson vs. Hart. I don't care what weird bias system some ref put in place for that fight. That isn't how fights are typically judged nor the correct way to judge a fight. So why would I put much stock in that kind of bias, weird and rarely used criteria when I know it's suspect? We clearly know from the fight reports that Johnson was his superior and a class above Hart. Hart was a bloody and bruised, Johnson looked nothing like that when it was over. Johnson should've won that fight, and I can see no other way to view it. Your bias against Johnson is clouding your judgement here.

Again you're listing fights where Johnson, by the first reports, was a class above all these men. They offered him little trouble at all. I'm supposed to think Johnson has no chance because he fought down a little to his competition? Johnson did have a tendency to do that, and to fight with the handcuffs on, but do you honestly believe he would get up the same for a fight with Jeffries as them? I know you don't believe that, so again, it's not a valid comparison on what might happen.

 

I think you can make a fair argument that black fighters deserved to have a separate top 10 rankings, considering most of them didn't mix it up with the majority of the White fighters that were listed in Matt's rankings

 

Explain how Corbett earned his title shot ?
He had had 2 fights in the previous 3 years and been ko'd in the 1st and dsq'd in the 2nd before he could be stopped. How do those results merit a title shot?
On October the 27th 1903 Johnson dominated and stopped Sam Mcvey in the 15th and last round.
Here is the press reaction to his win.
Los Angeles Times Oct 29th 1903."Its Up To You Champion Jeffries"
Jack Johnson is now the logical opponent for Jeffries.He is easily the master of his race and possessed of undeniable abilty,both in giving and avoiding punishment.He was a black Fitzsimmons worthy of the champion,for he is abetter man than Jeffries has yet met, barring possibly Bob Fitzsimmons.

The color line gag does not go now.It is pay or play in the fighting business.
Johnson has met all comers in his class; has defeated each and every one.
Now he stands ready to box for the world's championship.

Jeffries so far has met all comers.Will he turn down this one?
The public through the daily newspapers,demands a fight for the championship on behalf of Jack Johnson.
Jeffries must heed the call.
Johnson is the man who will give him a chance to show the best that is in him.If he can beat the negro,he need never fight again.

This is the reaction to McVey's defeat by Johnson from his manager,Billy Roche.
Johnson beat him in magnificent style . Johnson made such a grand fight that I can only express the greatest admiration for him as a boxer and a hard hitter.

Jeffries was consistent in his drawing of the color line against all black contenders.
He even refused to box Sam McVey whom Johnson had just defeated. The Colma Athletic Club,in the SanFrancisco area was offering $20,000 purse for a Jeffries v McVey title bout.
Jeff replied,"I have made up my mind never to fight a negro again as long as there are white men in the field"
Adam Pollack Jack Johnson The Rise page213.

Responding to these comments Johnson told a reporter.
"What I have to say is this.I feel Jeffries will fight me.He has been advised by certain friends to withdraw the color line,and I think he will accept my challenge,just as soon as he convinces himself that the public believe I am the proper man to oppose him.
I would like to box Jeffries twenty rounds. If it becomes necessary to meet him in a fight to the finish,I will not dodge the issue.I will fight him under any conditions he imposes.He can dictate all the terms.The only thing I will insist upon is that the contest shall be for the championship of the world! Adam Pollack same book same page.

 

Judging by how easily a green Johnson handled prime Sharkey I think there would be only one winner and it wouldnt be the 5'7" 185lbs Sailor.

 

Interestingly, the same journalists who clamored for Jeffries to fight Johnson, seem to have been convinced that Jeffries would prevail.

We might argue in hindsight, that they were slow to cotton on to how good Johnson was, as they had been with Jeffries early in his career.

 

I'm glad you stepped away from your argument that the belt was on the line for that fight and that they are always on the line when a champion fights. That is simply not true.

Who's to say what Jeffries would have done, but I can tell you that, Jeffries in print said numerous times that he wouldn't face Johnson or any other black fighter. Somehow thinking those words in print would change is your prerogative, but just remember you have no proof in this regard, while I have proof of his words to the contrary

Just because it's an elimination bout doesn't mean you go balls to the wall. Quite the opposite actually. Sometimes you play it safe FOR YOUR SHOT AND THEN GO BALLS TO THE WALL. We see this as a common occurrence in all sports. We see football teams trying to make it to the superbowl by running out the clock using their running game, even though their passing game had got them the lead. We see the same in basketball, where they use all the clock and running out the clock with the lead, instead of going for the kill and scoring more points. The list goes on and on. Johnson thought he was ahead, and he should've thought that considering how the fight was progressing. So feeling he won, he just was content to not get KO'd and run his shot feeling he had done enough. Obviously it didn't work out for him, but let's not pretend that this doesn't happen in boxing or any other sport. It happens all the time.

You keep forgetting, basing a fight on aggression and aggression alone WASN'T even the preferred scoring style in THAT time, let alone many years later. The type of scoring was specifically designed to be pro hart and anti-Johnson. I see no reason to back that scoring system with anything for than a raised eyebrow. It wasn't common practice then, and isn't now, and as I said, Johnson was a class above hart. They said so in print IF you read the reports. One of the leading ref of the day thought Johnson won and the verdict was suspect. That says a lot.

I think Johnson's prime could vary. He increased in weight as his career unfolded so it's hard to say exactly. I would venture to guess that anytime after 04/05 he was at his best or near it.

 

Jeffries would never have defended his title against a black manand he said so countless times ,you are in absolute denial. Jeffries stated BEFORE the Johnson v Hart fight that he would not fight Johnson should he be the winner. Your account of the second half of the Johnson v Hart fights with Johnson incessantly running away is pure fiction.
The San Francisco Call gave Johnson the,13th rd,the Examiner the 14th rd while the Call gave it even.Both the Call and the Examiner gave Johnson the 15th rd,The Examiner and the Chronicle both gave Johnson the 17th ,the Call made it an even rd.The Call again made the 18th rd even.
The San Francisco Chronicle and the Los Angeles Daily Times made Johnson the winner.
The Police Gazette stated," Hart did not have the better of the going and a draw would have been a present to him.The crowd liked Hart and the incessant shouts of support for him at least had a subconscious influence.There is no doubt that Greggains opinion was affected by the tremendous shouting of the crowd for Hart."

"It appears that most fair-minded writers felt that Johnson deserved no worse than a draw" Adam Pollack page354 No mention of him there saying Hart deserved the verdict!Which you tried to convince us was the case!