If Patterson had faced Zora Folley in 1959?

The situation demands acknowledging all the factors everyone has already explained to you. The unresolved eliminator, Valdes could not sell, the fans would have no faith in him by 58’ because he had been found out a few times, Cooper was worthy only after beating Foley etc etc. Yet you still believe it should have been as simple as lining everyone up and taking their turn back when the Tax situation meant champions could defend far less than at other times in history and logical contenders were selected from a group that fought far more often and could therefore lose in the meantime.

This is not an excuse. Its just how it was when you look deeper into it. The more we look into it the whole “Patterson/Damato ducked good challengers” dosnt really stand up anymore.

Bringing Joe Louis’ opinion into it doesn’t really explain or resolve the thing either. He was just a fan at that point. So it was just a theory. In fact his example explains why there was so few title fights after his reign. As champ, because Joe fought so often, he got into a terrible mess with his tax. He was fighting to pay interest because he spent income before he could pay the tax and could never get ahead.

 

Valdes couldn’t sell? Really? That’s horse****. He was extremely popular amongst the Latino fans..Weill nearly scheduled a fight Marciano vs Valdes in Miami because Valdes would be such a big draw there. If Valdes was under 6’ 200lb and couldn’t punch, he probably would have met Damatos requirement for a title match!

Stop hiding behind the fact damato did his beat to protect Floyd from the divisions elite while Liston had to clean out the division for him..Liston put so much pressure on Floyd in 1961 Floyd finally told damato to screw and caved in to the public pressure. Johansson wanted nothing to do with Liston...ever

Harris...radamacher....London...mcneeley = soft

 

This is not an excuse. Its just how it was when you look deeper into it. The more we look into it the whole “Patterson/Damato ducked good challengers” dosnt really stand up anymore. It’s a boxing myth.

Bringing Joe Louis’ opinion into it doesn’t really explain or resolve the thing either. He was just a fan at that point. So it was just a theory. In fact his example explains why there was so few title fights after his reign. As champ, because Joe fought so often, he got into a terrible mess with his tax. He was fighting to pay interest because he spent income before he could pay the tax and could never get ahead.

 

It’s only a boxing myth in your eyes. Damato coddled patterson as best he could, until Floyd told him to screw off.

Damato knew Floyd’s limitations, but he didn’t believe in his fighter enough.



Harris, London, radamacher, mcneeley instead of Machen, Cooper, Folley, and Williams....enough said. Damato wanted no part of those latter 4.

 

Another myth! Think of the time line. Sonny only began to clean up the division during the contracted rematches between Ingo and Patterson.

November 1958, when talks began for Floyd to meet Ingo, Sonny was the number 10 rated contender. So Liston hadn’t begun to clean up!

What he did after that didn’t matter because he was on ice until the rematch clauses had been resolved. And he was arrested and dropped from the ratings for some of that time with his pulling over of a woman whilst impersonating a policeman stunt.

 

Valdes credibility never recovered after the Satterfeild loss. He would win some lose some, then have a run of a few decent scalps in 1958 but never enough to eclipse younger contenders like Ingo. or Machen and Folley who had beat him.

Earlier he blew title eliminators with Moore and Baker. He had chances and blew them all. Then He blew it again against the footballer Powell.

Lesser challengers lucked out with career momentum. Valdes kept drooping the ball.

 

That December 1961 defense by Patterson against mcneeley was an absolute farce....

Plenty of time to fight a real contender..someone that had been waiting in line for a long time who was still rated in the top 3 in the world... cough Machen.....cough Folley..or he could have fought the new threat in the division NBA and RING top 10 Cleveland Williams...damato wanted none of that



RING ratings January 1962 (A month after Floyd fought mcneeley)

Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Sonny Liston
2. Eddie Machen
3. Zora Folley
4. Alejandro Lavorante
5. Robert Cleroux
6. Ingemar Johansson
7. Cleveland Williams
8. Henry Cooper
9. Cassius Clay
10. George Logan

 

Floyd was already set to meet Liston anyway. In fact Floyd and Sonny fought in the same ring the night Mcneeley was sacrificed....and Sonny took no chances of blowing his title shot selecting blond haired 5’7” Albert Westphal.

So you could say it was a double header where they both fought a tune up.

 

Where do you come up with his bull****?

Valdes credibility did go back up, hence his number 2, got that? Number 2 rating in the world by NBA and RING at the start of 1959.

In 1957-1958 valdes went on a 12-1 run..

He knocked out undefeated Joe Erskine in 1 round (beat Henry Cooper and Willie Pastrano). But let’s pretend like this win didn’t mean anything,

Beat top 10 ranked Dejohn 2x, and Bethea- 3 wins over top 10 guys matters

Knocked out Johnny Summerlin. Damato said he would give summerlin a title shot had he defeated Valdes.


Knocked out Harold Carter. Was the RING number 3 heavyweight in the world at the time. Not significant right?

Blew out top prospect pat McMurtry in 1 round in a televised bout

 

Lesser challengers lucked out with career momentum...

So Valdes 11-0 run from dec 1953-May 1955 wasn’t momentum? Including wins over Ezzard Charles Heinz Neuhaus and hurricane Jackson? And his NBA and RING number 1 rating dec 1953-April 1954 then July 1954-May 1955? Wasn’t enough momentum?

Funny because Weill gave 3 title shots Charles 2x Cockell to men Valdes pounded


Damato later gave the much lower rated London a title shot over Valdes in 59 and waited for someone else to do the dirty work to Valdes....perhaps if Valdes was small and couldn’t hit, he would have gotten that title shot instead of London

 

Ahhhh another “tune up” excuse...poor Machen Folley stuck standing at the top of the line while no hopers get “tune ups” for title shots...

Perhaps Machen and Folley would have been off completely dropping out of the ratings...then they would have had a better shot to get a title shot as a “tune up” than has the number 1 or 2 rated contender for several years

 

Cleveland Williams would have been the perfect opponent for that mcneeley December date coming off a knockout over Miteff in May 1961



"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

• After this bout, Texas Boxing Enterprises, the promoter of the bout, sent Floyd Patterson an offer of $100,000 or an option of 40% of the gate to meet Cleveland Williams.

 

Credibility with the paying public must have been damaged when he lost 6 times between 1955 and 1958. Six times is rather a lot. seeing the poor guy decked by Satterfeild and Machen on TV would effect the gate.

 

If Valdes was small and couldn’t punch, damato would have signed him up for sure!

 

that was a good run. But it came after a four fight loss streak, and Nino never rematched Harold Johnson or Ezzard Charles or Billy Gilliam. Valdes did get a spot in madison square garden against hand picked big blond James J Parker as a showcase coming out party - but he absolutely stank. The two hugged each other and looked like rank novices when they were made to fight. Nino got a decision that nobody cared about. It Ruined any urgent demand for nino as a logical outstanding contender to Rocky. So Valdes run would have to continue until he could erase this debacle and work to impress New Yorkers. He was never going to convince New York until he could get a good win there. This Eventually came when he beat Jackson.

Ezzard was a good win but until he had a second good win in America he never could have sold or eclipsed Archie Moore as a challenger. As it happened the Jackson win got nino the Moore eliminator but alas, it was another blunder.

well yes, these guys were able to impress in fights running up to these challenges. Nobody knew Valdes was better than Cokkell until he could fight him. The stunning win over the shot Cokkell brought Valdes his next title eliminator. Alas, another blunder. This time against Baker. Another stinkeroo.

but it was a case of selling a guy who lost six times in three years, already blew two world title eliminators or the English guy who beat Pastrano and took Cooper close over 15 rounds right after Machen and Folley lost their last fights too. Remember, Machen could not beat Folley but Cooper did, and Folley and Machen both beat Valdes.

I think that is just a bit simplistic. All the top contenders just lost to Euro guys. Valdes was old hat.