If Patterson had faced Zora Folley in 1959?

It would have been nice, Williams of course was no real threat to Floyd, but why should Williams go ahead of Liston? Williams was not #1. As a tune up, Surely The appalling shellacking Sonny gave Williams was still too fresh in fans minds?

No doubt Williams was better than mcneeley. But almost any other guy could have went ahead of him. Can you understand The Patterson vs mcneeley title fight was a double header with Liston and westphal because they had already agreed to meet. You can’t knock Floyd without knocking Sonny for fighting the guy he fought.

The double header was sold as an advert for the upcoming Patterson v Liston fight. It was never about being a true title fight. Should really have been two exhibitions since Sonny’s opponent that night was just as appalling.

 

So big powerful Valdes didn’t impress “New Yorker” but slow Chinny fat tub of lard cokkell did?


The press ridiculed marcianos manage for the choice of cockell as an opponent over Valdes or Moore. Weill has no business choosing cockell over Valdes as an opponent other than to protect marcianos nose from opening up



Shot cokkell? Was your evidence he was shot? He was only 26 years old. Maybe, perhaps cockell just wasn’t any good and Valdes exposed what everyone already knew?

 

After Valdes blew away hurricane Jackson in 2 rounds in Madison square garden...the New Yorkers were very impressed with Valdes. The nba immediately called Valdes most logical contender and demanded Marciano fight him next.


Weill instead chose fat boy cockell and poor Nino had to fight am eliminator vs Archie Moore

 

Funny you should blast Cokkell today when I was just reading a wonderful thread just yesterday regarding the undervalued Don Cokkell. It turns out The Boilermaker has achieved the linear ranking system.

 

Undervalued? The guy somehow got a title shot over a higher ranked much better fighter in Nino Valdes

Cockell sucked let’s face it. He couldn’t hit, he couldn’t take a punch, he was in dreadful shape, he wasn’t skilled

Cockells entrance into the heavyweight division was far from impressive...he beat a washed up Roland Lastarza whose manager jimmy fats Deangelo manufactured lastarzas high rating in the first place which was undeserved...and he had 3 wins over an aging light heavyweight in Matthews. The only genuine heavyweight he fought before Marciano, young Jimmy Slade, battered cockell easily in 4 rounds


Men like Valdes, Henry, baker, jackson, satterfield, all much much better heavyweights than cockell

 

No offense to boilermaker but he doesn’t understand the 50s era at all. Fat boy cockell was garbage

 

Answer me this choke


Who deserved the title shot vs Marciano

Cockell or Valdes?

I want a one word answer

 

But Valdes beating Cokkell right after Marciano Did is somehow different? Marciano had just beat Lastarza.

Valdes was ahead in the ratings but taking a #2 contender is hardly terrible. Until he beat Jackson, which came after Rocky beating Cokkell, what was there to go on with Valdes? Two stinkers with Parker and Mcbride? Charlie Doc Williams nearly knocked Valdes out the year previously.

well I’m not sure about that. Four knockdown beating Dan bucceroni was an excellent win. Cesar Brion and Rex Layne were decent on paper. Taking Marciano to a SD also made his name.

maybe they were better than Don. Who knows? But it dosnt mean Don was bad. Besides, Valdes, Henry, Baker and Jackson did not beat the right guys at the right time to earn a top two rating just when Rocky was defending against a #2 challenger though did they?

Don beating 84-4 Mathews three times was a big deal. He looked good.

 

In truth, both deserved a shot. So the one word answer is “both”.

Trouble was Charles got one extra date over them because he put up a good show he got a rematch. Once Cokkell was chosen Valdes was booked to meet Moore who was already the better challenger. Moore won that fight not Valdes.

 

You are wrong. Valdes beat Jackson in July 54. Cockell didn’t fight Marciano until May 55.

What was there to go on with Valdes? Plenty. He won a wide decision over former heavyweight champion and number 1 contender Ezzard Charles. He dominated and knocked out European champion Heinz Neuhaus who was rated 6th in the world by NBA and RING, and Heinz had never been stopped before.


"Nino Valdes of Cuba demanded top rating among heavyweight contenders today because of his impressive victories over European champion Heinz Neuhaus, Sunday, and ex-world champion Ezzard Charles on August 11th. The kayo - at 2:10 of the 4th round - was witnessed by 19,000 fans here in the huge indoor Westfalen Halle. Most of the fans were bitterly disappointed when they saw Neuhaus suffer the first kayo in his career of 33 professional fights. They had figured him a potential world champion." -United Press

• This victory elevated Valdes to #1 contender in Ring Magazine's heavyweight ratings.

After this fight, Valdes continued his impressive run by being the first man to knock out euro champ Karel Sys in his 140 bout career!

Then he was matched up with Tommy Jackson in Madison square garden in a huge fight between two top contenders. Jackson had recently defeated Clarence Henry, Rex Layne, and Dan Bucceroni. Valdes destroyed Jackson in 2 rounds. So impressive that New York Times immediately demanded Valdes Be marcianos next fight, and the nba promoted Valdes to number 1 most logical


So what was there to go on with cockell? He wasn’t even good enough to win the euro title. He was simply British champion. He was a B level middleweight who got destroyed by randy Turpin. Then his glandular problem made him fatten up to a flabby 205lb. He wasn’t really a heavyweight. His first real heavyweight he faced, light hitting slade knocked him out easily in 4 rounds! Then cockell fought a ruined lastarza, who was coming off a brutal loss where he suffered permanent blood vessel and bone damage in his arms vs Marciano. Lastarza would get crushed by Charlie norkus in his next fight. And don then fought aging B level harry Kid Matthews 3 times. Matthews wasn’t rated at all.

So what’s more impressive, defeating near retirement versions of lastarza and Matthews or beating top rated Jackson, Neuhaus in clear cut fashion?

The press was very impressed with Valdes, but not cockell. They ridiculed him as a choice for marciano. He was fat, couldn’t hit, and couldn’t take a punch

 

More on Valdes Jackson

Here’s an article


Pittsburgh COURIER July 24, 1954-

Hurricane Had Color, Nothing More . . Approximately a year ago, Nino Valdes, the Cuban heavyweight contender, was hailed in fistic circles as "the him as the "most likely to succeed." He then went on, to the delight of the prognosticators, to beat Ezzard Charles, proving to one and all that he was no flash In the pan; about as good a heavyweight as you will find these days. . Last week! Nino, who speaks much Spanish and very little English, established himself as the leading candidate for the most cherished award they give out in boxing. He did more for boxing in 1954 than any other boxer - when he knocked out Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson in 2 "minutes and 35 seconds of the second round. ' At the end of the year, Nino will receive our vote as the individnal who "did the most for boxing in 1954."

Hurricane Jackson had to be disposed of . . . and Valdes . was equal to the task. That does not mean, of course, that the Hurricane who was just a breeze for nino should have his citizenship papers confiscated; that he should be put on a barge and shipped out to sea. Jackson definitely added some color and drama to the sock scene before, he ran into trouble . Valdes, to be specific. n : . Jackson never has been a fighter of - championship caliber, despite the fact that he disposed of Clarence Henry, Charley Norkus, Dan Bucceroni Rex Layne, But he did get the tub thumpers to beating their drums and excited - some people in a mild manner because he possessed the one thing so many fighters lack today that indefinable thing they call "color." He was an unorthodox campaigner." He reintroduced the "double" uppercut and baffled inept opponents by leading with his right, and, also, gave us a new version ot the old "Jersey Joe Walcott shuffle." Yes, indeed, he was colorful . . . but the scholars of the prize fighting business knew all along that he couldn't fight; that eventually he would run into a guy like Valdes and get flattened.

In a way, It is too bad that Jackson can't fight. If he had all the necessary qualities, Hurricane could definitely add some excitement to the drab heavyweight picture. Instinctively, he is a. ham at heart. Tommy loves to be in the limelight, thrives on publicity and public adulation. He should be a bona fide member of the Actors' Guild. ' - . He has a knack of coming up with delightful expenses after suffering defeat. Following his loss to Willie Troy, for example, he growled: ; "You can blame this defeat on my mother, not me. My mother is the cause of it. I wanted to go out with .girls. She wouldn't let me, made me stay at home. That upset me, caused me mental anguish. " How can a - guy fight if he can't go out with girls?" The answer to that, of course, Is . . . how can a guy fight if he does go out with girls, especially before a fight? . . . No one would be so blase as to reprimand the Hurricane for wanting to go out with girls. That is dandy recreation. But you don't do it before a big fight. Some how, girls have a way of distracting young men who should have their minds on future business. In this case, Hurricane's future business included a champion by the flame of Rocky Marciano. But that was Jackson's excuse for defeat girls. That was the most far - fetched explanation for inglorious defeat any athlete, or fighter, has ever given out In the entire history of the sports world. There were those, however, who were willing to accept it. They decided to give him a real chance. . He was matched with Nino, a big heavyweight who does not hold the feminine portion of the population in such exalted esteem. Valdes belted him out in less than two rounds. Jackson couldn't blame that on his mother or the girls. Before the fight they shipped him up in the New York mountains and made sure that he was trained thoroughly. He was in perfect physical condition when the bell rang. There was only one thing wrong with the Hurricane he just couldn't fight. Valdes Could Give Marciano Trouble ... That victory made Valdes only logical contender for heavyweight title. The International Boxing Club hopes to match him with the winner of the Marciano - Ezzard Charles return bout in September. All Nino has to do now is sit around and ignore the girls, wait for his big opportunity. He insists that he can beat Marciano. "I'll knock him out inside of four rounds," he said after disposing of Jackson. "Marciano can't take my punch." That, of course,, is the prediction of a fighter flushed with victory. After belting Jackson out, Nino was of the opinion he could beat anyone in the house, like the great John L. Sullivan. , But it won't be that easy.Marciano has Charles in the impending return bout which is considerably tougher and dangerous than the likes of Hurricane Jackson. But Valdes is the kind of fighter who could give Rocky trouble. He Is big, takes a good punch and can throw bombs well. He could be the man they have been looking for!

It isn't likely that Charles will beat Marciano in September, or any other month, for that matter. Ezzard lacks the heft and power. As a, boxer, he has the edge. But boxers are Marciano's meat. - Valdes, on the other hand, is a puncher. No one knows right now how good a puncher, but he is definitely a member of that school. He is tall and could keep the ever - charging Marciano off with his stiff left jab. Meantime, Hurricane Jackson should take stock, decide' that perhaps his mother isn't to blame, after all. In other words . . . there's no place like home, Tommy.

 

Lastarza....


Seamus said it best about him in 2010



“LaStarza is just the cause celebre of Marciano turd burglars. We have no idea how much above decent he really was. He beat the bum's run of Northeast tiny 1950's heavyweights who all worked the docks and the bars next to the docks on their off-hours.”



Here is the truth about lastarza


A slim crowd of about 1,400 paid a total of $3,000 to see Jones win a unanimous decision over LaStarza.

Former Chester Times sports writer Matt Zabitka wrote, “Jones wasn’t given even a minuscule chance of defeating Roland LaStarza, let alone lasting more than a round.

“LaStarza, who was to face undefeated champion Rocky Marciano in a world title bout in September of 1953, was seeking some patsies to beef up his record.

“Jones, a short, muscular type blessed with tons of guts, was booked to be LaStarza’s human punching bag.”

In the rematch at Brooklyn’s Eastern Parkway Arena in front of a national television audience, Rocky lost a unanimous decision after knocking down LaStarza in the second round and cutting both of his eyes.

“LaStarza was the big draw then,” explained Zabitka. “He had to be protected. Jones was a nobody, hence the rapidly arranged rematch.”

Many years later, Rocky Jones was asked why he didn’t continue his assault on LaStarza in their second bout. After knocking down LaStarza in the second round and bloodying his face, many fight fans felt Rocky could have finished him off.

Rocky’s answer was, “Before the fight, the big guys from New York came to see me. They just said, ‘You know what you’re supposed to do, don’t you, Rocky?’ They told me I wasn’t supposed to do my best.”


Here is what Philadelphia Boxing historian Chuck Hasson had to say about lastarza

His reputation was built on the first Rocky fight. Although he had a long winning streak at the beginning of his career, there are no tough names on his record. After the first Marciano fight he could have forced the issue by meeting top fighters. He refused fights with Charles, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker etc. Lost and avenged to overstuffed lt.heavy Dan Bucceroni and to lt. heavy Rocky Jones and looked terrible against Jones in the rematch. The Jones win and a victory over the faded Rex Layne gave him the credentials to meet Rocky for the title. A fight I am told Rocky was more intent on giving

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a beating for all of the talk that he "was afraid" to meet

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again than KOing him early which I believe he could have done easily. Look at LaStarza's record there are no tough names on it except for Marciano.I have the complete film of the Jones rematch and believe me

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looked terrible. Jones was approached at the morning weigh-in by Jimmy White (Amato) a shadowy figure who was a mob contact man and manager and told Rocky "we don't wan't any of that stuff that happened in Akron."Jones had two good rounds then was told to "cool it."

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NEVER fought a danerous opponent except Marciano and thats a fact if you know any of the fighters from his era. I am not saying that

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was a coward but he (or, excuse me, his management) refused matches with Henry, Charles, Baker, and Archie Moore.

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, saying he wouldn't take those matches because he "deserved" a rematch with Marciano and thought he was offered the other matches by the IBC only because they were trying to knock him out of "his rightful shot at Marciano." Boo Hoo Hoo. Real, confident fighters go out and prove they deserve their shot by beating dangerous fighters to force a showdown with a champion. Again, let me reinterate-when Marciano fought

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the first time Rocky was boxing for the first time after the Vingo tragedy. Rocky had threatened to quit boxing. Is it any wonder he was not the usual agressive Marciano but an understandably gunshy, tenitive boxer that night ?"-

 

Exactly. Then he was matched with Jackson. I said until he beat Jackson Nino was looking for the second win the NewYorkers needed to take him seriously. The James Parker fight sucked bad. The Doc Williams fight sucked bad. The Archie Mcbride fight sucked bad. And these came after his win in Miami over Ezzard Charles that proceeded four back to back losses to Moore, Johnson, Gilliam and Baker. Moore and Baker were making waves in the division on their own. So he needed to eclipse those two. Nino needed that Jackson fight. The high rank on its own was not enough to excite anyone.

 

So once he knocked out Jackson, he should have gotten the title shot over cockell...you agree?