Lineal Rankings System

I gave you my top 15 list for the era 1950-1955


Let’s see yours or you can refute my list

 

Your top 7 is my top 7. I suppose there are quibbles about the order, but no problem for me.

I think Franco Cavicchi is a defensible and interesting choice. He looks good on film, a big well built guy who can move around, and ran up a strong record until he somehow lost to Hans Friedrich, and then Johansson. Ingo at least is easy enough to explain, though. After that Cavicchi went back fast.

Maxim is all right if we are considering his entire career. If we are talking about the 1950-1955 period only, I wouldn't put him up there. The Patterson he defeated was not yet a heavyweight and only 19.

Suzie overrates Henry. You underrate him I think, but I definitely don't think he belongs ahead of Layne.

 

everybody is doing a top 15 for 1950-1955, so here is mine--

1-----Rocky Marciano
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Jersey Joe Walcott
4-----Joe Louis
5-----Archie Moore
6-----Harold Johnson
7-----Rex Layne
8-----Nino Valdes
9-----Hurricane Jackson
10----Clarence Henry
11----Bob Satterfield
12----Bob Baker
13----John Holman
14----Roland LaStarza
15----Cesar Brion

 

I think it’s indefensible to rate cavvichi, who hid in Europe his entire career and never cracked the RING and NBA top 5, over guys like baker, Henry who cracked the top 5 three times from 1950-1955.

Neuhaus over Henry and baker is also egregious. Neuhaus got blown out in 4 by Nino Valdes. Baker twice beat Valdes.

Matthews at 8 is way too high for having 1 win over a layne who wasn’t even showing up to fights in shape anymore.

From 1950-1955 Henry beat the following men who were top 10..

— Jimmy Bivins, Bob Baker 2x, Bob Satterfield, John Holman, bob Dunlap, Turkey Thompson, rusty Payne, Irish bob Murphy. That’s 9 victories. Baker was undefeated and rated number 3 in the world when Henry flattened him.

Henry was rated 4th in 1950, 3rd in 1951, 5th in 1952, and 6th in 1953....that’s more than half the era he spent rated in the top 5! He got mega fights with Johnson and Moore. Moore beat him up but Henry gave Johnson such a close fight the newspaper was split on who won. Marcianos camp an louis camp turned down fights with Henry. The only reason he dropped off in 1954 was he started to go blind!

How is that overrated? Have you ever seen Henry on film?

It wasn’t a fluke Henry was that good. He was a decorated amateur. Highly thought of coming out of the west coast.

When did Matthews have that type of longevity in the ratings from 1950-1955?



Lastarza, I’ve already said my piece. Overrated. Rocky Jones fights are stinkers!

 

I thought you decided to move Henry above Jackson? Henry was going blind when he fought hurricane Jackson

 

“Strong Record”

Care to explain that?

From 1950-1955 he fought 1 man rated in the RING top 10 from 1950-1955. Heinz Neuhaus. Cavvichi went 1-1 against him

Rather than say he had a strong record, I would say he fought a complete cupcake schedule to pad his record.

“Looks good on film”

I’ve seen him. I think a big man like bob baker looks levels above cavvichi


1950
Ezzard Charles, Champion

1. Joe Louis
2. Lee Savold
3. Joey Maxim
4. Clarence Henry
5. Bob Baker
6. Rex Layne
7. Jersey Joe Walcott
8. Jack Gardner
9. Lee Oma
10. Rocky Marciano

1951

Jersey Joe Walcott, Champion

1. Ezzard Charles
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Clarence Henry
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Karel Sys
6. Joe Louis
7. Cesar Brion
8. Joe Baksi
9. Bob Baker
10. Johnny Williams

1952

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Rex Layne
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Dunlop
5. Clarence Henry
6. Johnny Williams
7. Roland LaStarza
8. Heinz Neuhaus
9. Karel Sys
10. Jimmy Bivins

1953

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Earl Walls
6. Don Cockell
7. Clarence Henry
8. Tommy Harrison
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Coley Wallace

1954


Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Don Cockell
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Baker
5. Earl Walls
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Rex Layne
8. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
9. Charley Norkus
10. Jimmy Slade

1955

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Archie Moore
2. Bob Baker
3. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
4. John Holman
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Nino Valdes
7. Johnny Summerlin
8. Bob Satterfield
9. Young Jack Johnson
10. Ezzard Charles

 

Your list is way more like mine than his. You told me last week you were sold on moving Henry above Jackson.

One point about Henry

Here were his ranking by the RING from 1950-1955

1950 -4th
1951- 3rd
1952- 5th
1953- 7th

He spent the first four years in the top 7, the first three years in the top 5! Other than Marciano Charles Walcott Moore and H Johnson, who else had that type of quality longevity?

 

Cavvichi never once cracked the top 10 by the RING from 1950-1955. I think it’s a glaring error to place him above baker and Henry who regularly beat top level completion and cracked the ring top 5.

Neuhaus got destroyed by Valdes in 4. Baker twice beat Valdes. Why is Neuhaus above baker and Henry? Another glaring error

Matthews is way too high. He did not defeat enough top level heavyweights. He should not be on the list at all

Lastarza was involved with opponents who were placed on handcuffs by the mob. I believe he was overrated

Hurricane Jackson is a glaring omission

 

Stats based on the RING 1950-1955

1950
Ezzard Charles, Champion

1. Joe Louis
2. Lee Savold
3. Joey Maxim
4. Clarence Henry
5. Bob Baker
6. Rex Layne
7. Jersey Joe Walcott
8. Jack Gardner
9. Lee Oma
10. Rocky Marciano

1951

Jersey Joe Walcott, Champion

1. Ezzard Charles
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Clarence Henry
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Karel Sys
6. Joe Louis
7. Cesar Brion
8. Joe Baksi
9. Bob Baker
10. Johnny Williams

1952

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Rex Layne
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Dunlop
5. Clarence Henry
6. Johnny Williams
7. Roland LaStarza
8. Heinz Neuhaus
9. Karel Sys
10. Jimmy Bivins

1953

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Earl Walls
6. Don Cockell
7. Clarence Henry
8. Tommy Harrison
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Coley Wallace

1954


Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Don Cockell
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Baker
5. Earl Walls
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Rex Layne
8. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
9. Charley Norkus
10. Jimmy Slade

1955

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Archie Moore
2. Bob Baker
3. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
4. John Holman
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Nino Valdes
7. Johnny Summerlin
8. Bob Satterfield
9. Young Jack Johnson
10. Ezzard Charles

Most amount of times in top 10

6- Rocky Marciano, Ezzard Charles
5- None
4- Clarence Henry, Bob Baker
3- Nino Valdes, Rex Layne, Rex Layne, Roland Lastarza, Jersey Joe Walcott


Most amount of times in the top 5

5- Rocky Marciano, Ezzard Charles
4- None
3- Clarence Henry, Bob Baker
2- Earl Walls, Nino Valdes, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roland Lastarza

 

Wait if you have Satterfield Henry or Baker Henry on film could you upload them to youtube?

 

Give me a break. I'm an old man. I forgot who I rated where a week ago. I guess the reason I unconsciously went back to Jackson is he had the more "name" wins of the two. It is easy to mock his goofy style, but he won a lot.

Anyway, I rate them right next to each other.

The problem with Henry for me is that while I would rate him high, he really just doesn't have a win that proves him more than just rather good. His career flaming out with an injury doesn't exactly prove he would have been the best w/o the injury.

Best wins--Jimmy Bivins. Aging and fading, but a good win. Satterfield? A good win but a total in and outer who lost also to several other men in this top 15. Baker? I just don't see Baker as quite that good. He never beat a champion and neither did Henry. I might be wrong, but I think beating the best at some point is what really matters.

If A beat B and B beat C and C beat A, and B is the champion, I rate A over C.

Just my view on an admittedly confusing matter.

 

Matthews--Matthews was rated in 1942, and again from 1950-1952. He was rated #1 contender at light-heavyweight in 1951, higher in his division than Henry was ever rated, if these paper ratings matter all that much.

LaStarza--I don't know why he was brought up. I rated him well behind Henry.

Actually Henry defeated 10 men who appeared in The Ring yearly rankings, and had 12 wins over them--

Bob Murphy, John Holman, Rusty Payne, Turkey Thompson, Bob Dunlap, Doc Williams, Omelio Agramonte (2), Jimmy Bivins, Bob Baker (2), Bob Satterfield

Curiously, Layne is exactly the same. 10 men and 12 wins.

Dave Whitfield (3), Bob Dunlap, Joe Kahut, Turkey Thompson, Jersey Joe Walcott, Cesar Brion, Bob Satterfield, Henry Hall, Ezzard Charles, Bob Garner

I know you will ask--what about Harry Matthews. He has 13 men and 17 wins.

Al Hostak, Milo Savage (2), Watson Jones, Phil Muscato, Anton Raadik (2), Bob Murphy, Freddie Beshore (2), Lloyd Marshall, Jose Besora, Dave Whitfield (2), Danny Nardico, Rex Layne, Ezzard Charles

Let's keep going, Nino Valdes 16 men with 17 wins

Omelio Agramonte, Ezzard Charles, Doc Williams, Heinz Neuhaus, Karel Sys, Hurricane Jacksson, Don C, D-ck Richardson, Joe Erskine, John Holman, Wayne Bethea, Mike DeJohn (2), Johnny Summerlin, Harold Carter, Pat McMurtry, Brian London

and Bob Baker, 15 men with 19 victories

Marty Marshall, Johnny Flynn, Rusty Payne, Omelio Agramonte (2), Jimmy Bivins, Cesar Brion, Nino Valdes (2), Doc Williams, Joe Baksi, Coley Wallace, Jimmy Slade, Rex Layne (3), John Holman, George Chuvalo, D-ck Richardson

Quantity aside, quality favors Layne with wins over two heavyweight champions when they were still at the top of the division.

Neither Baker nor Henry defeated a champion.

**Sorry. I confused an answer to Boilermaker with one against me. Sorry again.

 

Suzie--A question. You are a fan, or even an owner, of a baseball team. You have a choice over the next five years between pitcher A or pitcher B.

Pitcher A will twice win 25 games, carrying you to the pennant and world series championship each year. Two other years he will win 16 games, and you will finish 3rd both times. The fifth year he will only win 10 games, and you will finish last.

Pitcher B will win 18 games every year, and you will always finish 2nd. You will never be champion but you will be a consistent also ran.

Which pitcher would you choose?

 

At what point does being a great contender matter? Henry was rated in the top 5 for 3 consecutive years during the era. Only Marciano and Charles were rated in the top 5 for longer.

Henry faced 2 champs. Johnson and Moore. He got beaten decisively by an absolute peak Archie Moore. No shame there. His other fight, he fought 10 life or death rounds in a very close split decision loss to Harold Johnson. Not a bad result

His Baker wins were huge. Baker was rated number 4 in the world and undefeated. Also baker was a decorated amateur. Mcgrain once posted an article on bob baker by the RING in 1950. It was very positive comparing him at times to a young Joe Louis.

I have the film:

Clarence Henry KO 8 Bob Baker- Only 2 rounds of this fight, but I was highly impressed with both. Baker was at his peak here, his brittle hand injuries that hampered him later in his career were not bothering him, and henry's poor eye site hadnt caught up to him yet. By all accounts this fight was two young peak leading contenders hungry for a title shot. Baker had real fast fists for a big man, his technique was superb and he seemed really loose as a goose the way punches rolled off his shoulders, he was not afraid to trade leather with henry. This might have been his demise though, because Henry behind on points in the 8th round baited baker to play his game. Henry was the bigger puncher despite being outweighed by 30lb....and one of his long left hooks caught baker flush turning bakers legs to rubber...henry followed it up with a huge flurry and Baker fell through the ropes counted out OUT COLD. This fight ultimatley vaulted Henry into the top of the RING Rankings, and it was the reason Henry was considered the favorite over Harold Johnson in 52.

“Baker never beat a champion”

Only Archie Moore fought him. Patterson Marciano never fought baker. Baker was one of the most consistently good fighters of fhe whole era. He made the top 5 four times during the era. Only Marciano and Charles had better longevity in the ratings. Baker fought really tough completion, did not avoid anyone, and defeated as many rated contenders as any contender of the era. Baker also went 5-0 against Valdes and Layne.