Where do you rate Haye in the list of Wlad's best wins

Think people being a bit harsh on David Haye tbh. Carl Thompson was his tenth fight. He beat mock in his 7th fight...the only man to stop mock in sixty odd fights. He battered Thompson about the ring that night...was a little bit too inexperienced at the time. He also battered momeck about the ring as well. Before dispatching him in the seventh. The same momeck that only lost to masturnek on a majority decision seven years later. Momeck must have been in his forties at the time. Bellew only beat masturnek by a couple of points a few years back. I say haye could well have been wlads best win.

Haye battered Barrett, ruiz, chisora, Harrison. Mcarannelli. He pretty much battered everyone they put in front of him...barring valuev and klitchko...who we,re giants in comparison. Wlad fought a great fight against haye tactically. Nullified him. Still had steward in the corner at that point and wlad was a master of distance. Haye could well have still been one of if not the most dangerous opponent for wlad that he beat. Lead nullified him...but pretty sure hate would have had a shot against anyone else lead beat. He had very solid power at both cruiser and heavyweight....was fast...powerful. People keep going on about his boxing fundamentals but they we,re actually pretty good. Wide stance. Would get off first with his speed. Then was quick on the counter using his wide stance. Made opponents second guess going in on him. He d kind of lull you into to throwing before coming back at you with the hayemaker. The tactics we,re spot on. Left a lot of opponents in the difficult position of taking shots and yet being apprehensive to get their own off for fear of what was coming back. Haye a nightmare for most opponents. Just too big an ask against guys at six foot six that we,re great at judging distance. Or guys that we,re seven foot tall. Haye at his best at heavyweight would have gave Joshua something to think about. His footspeed was quicker than parkers. Joshua not such a good judge of distance as klitchko.

Clearly injured and past it against bellew. You can't really include them fights as a basis of judging him in his prime. Haye was a great fighter. Biggest critism was he could have done a lot more than he did at cruiser. What he did at heavyweight was actually impressive. Very few jump the weight and get success. He battered natural heavys. His career wasn,t really about who he beat...but how he beat them. But still got some top wins along the way...usually always impressively as well

 

lol dont try and sell him too hard.

 

Fair enough mate. I still say contrary to what people say someone like Harrison wasn't a bad win for any cruiserweight moving up. Audley was never great...but he was a genuine natural heavyweight in every sense of the word. Six foot five. Long reach. Could dig a bit as well against a cruiser anyway. He got found out in the end...became gunshy...stopped training right etc. But people underestimate how hard it is jumping a weight. Audleys an average win if your a heavyweight but its a decent win if your a cruiserweight moving up. Barrett, Ruiz, chisora, mcanaranelli we,re battered from pretty much the first bell. Ruiz and Barrett we,re knocked about. Chisora knocked out. Mcanaranelli beating badly in three rounds. Mcanaranelli and chisora we,re good fighters on good form at the time. Barrett and Ruiz we,re on the slide but both established experienced genuine heavyweights. People including hate underestimated how difficult that jump to heavyweight is. They might not look the best fighters but gets tricky when your needing to bulk up to get close to their natural weights.

 

I suspect that he had to step up, because he was struggling to make weight.

Either way, do you think that it would have been a better use of his time to defend his cruiser weight belts, than it would to pick up a belt at heavyweight?

I don't personally think that it would.

 

I guess this is what the argument comes down to:

Mormeck does the hard work, and rounds up the belts, then Haye beats Mormeck, and adds another belt.

Then he becomes the only cruiserweight champion since Holyfield to win part of the heavyweight title, and the case seems to be made.

 

1. Defeating an undefeated Peter 24-0 was his arrival fight. Peter was considered a nightmare at the time.
2. Defeating an undefeated Ibrigamov 21-0 solidified he would fight undefeated fighters moving in their prime.
3. Defeating an undefeated Povetkin 26-0, he's still being mentioned- like Wilder supposedly ducked him-not Wlad
4. Defeating an undefeated Calvin Brock 29-0 And the way he dropped him was brutal.
5.. Defeating an undefeated Ruslan Chagaev 25-0-1
6. Defeating an undefeated Pulev 20-0 Only one to beat him.
7. Defeating Peter more definitively a 2nd time
8. Defeating the top ranked HW at the time Tony Thompson 31-1- Straight knock out.
9. tossup between Wach, Jennings & Haye & Mormeck as Wlads 9,10,11,12th best wins for him

When Wlad defeated Haye, he did it by landing a bit over 130 punches. Thats about 10 landed per round.
Haye was credited with landing 72 out of 290 thrown. Even if we spot Hay 30 or so punches- not one round did he land in double digits.

No way that constitutes as a great win. Especially considering how often Haye ended up on his knees -face level with Wlad's nut sack as seen in his silent video about 1 minute mark here...priceless!!!!

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Of course it was the right decision from a financial, and possibly health-related, point of view. But the fact is he didn't stick around at CW to build anything approaching a legacy and can't be rated highly as a result.

 

This is a very one-sided and inaccurate assessment.

Mormeck had already been KOed by O'Neill Bell a couple fights before he lost to Haye. And the fight itself was a competitive affair with knockdowns for both men; Haye certainly didn't just batter him into submission.

Mormeck went on to have a very nondescript career at heavyweight before losing in a ridiculous mismatch to Wlad (how come you never mentioned that one?) and Masternak. He wasn't some monster; he just didn't fight that many good people once he moved up, and when he did he lost.

I really hope you're not basing that last statement on Haye's win over Mormeck, because that's an incredibly weak and unconvincing argument.

So in essence he only didn't batter who was put in front of him when they weren't broken down journeymen or glass cannons.

Fair enough assessment. Though again Haye didn't fight enough good quality opponents at heavy to really judge him with any degree of accuracy. He had speed and power, but he also had stamina issues and a fragile jaw, along with a bunch of other minor flaws. He wasn't head and shoulders above any of the other top opponents Wlad fought, and shouldn't be automatically favoured over them. Chagaev, Ibragimov, Povetkin and Byrd would have all been competitive fights, and someone like Chambers would have given him problems as well. Lesser fighters already had.

If you're going to dismiss Bellew's wins over Haye on the basis that Haye was injured and past it then you need to disregard Haye's win against Valuev. That takes away one of his best wins, and invalidates the achievement of winning his belt.

Haye spent his career at HW cherry-picking old, broken down 'name' opponents to bolster his ranking and keep the hype show going with big KOs, and frankly I don't see any justification for praising his run during this time.

 

Harrison was always terrible. Gun-shy, physically and mentally fragile, and old by the time Haye fought him. Everyone with a brain knew that fight was a complete joke, and cash-grab. Any decent cruiser would have done a number on him as well. Being six feet five with a long reach doesn't matter a damn when you're terrified of throwing a punch.

 

Ruiz, Barrett...good solid heavyweights. Both on the downward slide. Regardless tho no ones knocked Ruiz about like that. Barrett also a solid contender level fighter. Was up and down numerous times. Chisora again another solid enough heavy. Knocked out badly in five. There was a clear gap between hate and solid heavyweight contenders that much was clear. How many other cruiserweights can say the same...my guess is not many. Valuev a nitemare opponent. You might cherrypick him for a belt but couldnt imagine too many cherrypicking a seven foot guy with an 86 inch reach if your six foot 2 with a 78. That's seriously not a cherry pick opponent. People would think your mad calling that a cherry pick. And yet a lot of people do it mainly because they don' like hate the man. I m not the mans biggest fan...but its not fair when guys completely rewrite stuff about peoples careers. Jumping from cruiser to heavys a big ask for anyone. If you get some kind of success doing it....your a good fighter. Name me other cruisers that got more success than haye barring holyfield. I don' think that will be a very long list...for good reason. Its a hard thing to do. Hate and a lot of people underestimated how hard the jump would be IMO.

 

It's a poor argument.

Even if I felt his heavyweight achievements were great that wouldn't have any bearing on where I rate him at cruiserweight. Unless he steps into the ring having weighed in under the cruiserweight limit, then whatever he does can not be regarded as counting to his cruiserweight legacy.

O'Neill Bell KO'd Mormeck in a fight for 3 world title belts too. Mormeck outpointed him in a rematch but it doesn't change the fact that Bell did what Haye did, less than 2 years earlier.
It's strange that Haye's win over Mormeck, as good as it was, has been inflated to hold so much weight for a legacy of "cruiserweight greatness".
There's very little reason to regard it as such. And I rate it as a very good win.

At heavyweight, the WBA belt Haye picked up wasn't particularly valued at the time. Look at its lineage. Somehow Chagaev had lost it outside of the ring a little while before Chagaev faced Klitschko (stepping in to cover Haye, who pulled out in 2009), and the WBA somehow got Ruiz and Valuev (both well past it, and had both been beaten by Chagaev) to contest the title again. Valuev wins a close one against Ruiz and needs a gift to get past a 46 year old Holyfield ..... ) ..... The only "part" of the heavyweight title the WBA represented was the part concocted by the strange thinking of the WBA itself.

 

I'm not sure I've disliked any fighter in recent years more than David Haye.

His pre-fight antics have been an embarrassment and I was delighted to see Tony Bellew end his career last weekend. Good riddance.

 

the physical attributes i agree, but thats all that was genuine about audlee "lie on the floor pretending to be knocked out to avoid getting hit" harrison

 

You are correct .. I meant cruiser .. never a light heavy that I know of as a pro.

 

Got to be top 3, easy for us all to say Haye wasn't all that now when he's finished...and it's true.

But at the time he was a top level opponent whatever way you look at it and one who some really believed could beat Wladimir. Add to that the casuals attraction to that one, Haye being the big British hope at heavyweight at the time and he comes in at 3 at least, behind Byrd and Povetkin in my opinion