Harry Kid Matthews vs the following men

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, May 11, 2018.



  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Pittsburgh COURIER July 24, 1954-

    Hurricane Had Color, Nothing More . . Approximately a year ago, Nino Valdes, the Cuban heavyweight contender, was hailed in fistic circles as "the him as the "most likely to succeed." He then went on, to the delight of the prognosticators, to beat Ezzard Charles, proving to one and all that he was no flash In the pan; about as good a heavyweight as you will find these days. . Last week! Nino, who speaks much Spanish and very little English, established himself as the leading candidate for the most cherished award they give out in boxing. He did more for boxing in 1954 than any other boxer - when he knocked out Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson in 2 "minutes and 35 seconds of the second round. ' At the end of the year, Nino will receive our vote as the individnal who "did the most for boxing in 1954."

    Hurricane Jackson had to be disposed of . . . and Valdes . was equal to the task. That does not mean, of course, that the Hurricane who was just a breeze for nino should have his citizenship papers confiscated; that he should be put on a barge and shipped out to sea. Jackson definitely added some color and drama to the sock scene before, he ran into trouble . Valdes, to be specific. Jackson never has been a fighter of - championship caliber, despite the fact that he disposed of Clarence Henry, Charley Norkus, Dan Bucceroni Rex Layne, But he did get the tub thumpers to beating their drums and excited - some people in a mild manner because he possessed the one thing so many fighters lack today that indefinable thing they call "color." He was an unorthodox campaigner." He reintroduced the "double" uppercut and baffled inept opponents by leading with his right, and, also, gave us a new version ot the old "Jersey Joe Walcott shuffle." Yes, indeed, he was colorful . . . but the scholars of the prize fighting business knew all along that he couldn't fight; that eventually he would run into a guy like Valdes and get flattened.

    In a way, It is too bad that Jackson can't fight. If he had all the necessary qualities, Hurricane could definitely add some excitement to the drab heavyweight picture. Instinctively, he is a. ham at heart. Tommy loves to be in the limelight, thrives on publicity and public adulation. He should be a bona fide member of the Actors' Guild. ' - . He has a knack of coming up with delightful expenses after suffering defeat. Following his loss to Willie Troy, for example, he growled: ; "You can blame this defeat on my mother, not me. My mother is the cause of it. I wanted to go out with .girls. She wouldn't let me, made me stay at home. That upset me, caused me mental anguish. " How can a - guy fight if he can't go out with girls?" The answer to that, of course, Is . . . how can a guy fight if he does go out with girls, especially before a fight? . . . No one would be so blase as to reprimand the Hurricane for wanting to go out with girls. That is dandy recreation. But you don't do it before a big fight. Some how, girls have a way of distracting young men who should have their minds on future business. In this case, Hurricane's future business included a champion by the flame of Rocky Marciano. But that was Jackson's excuse for defeat girls. That was the most far - fetched explanation for inglorious defeat any athlete, or fighter, has ever given out In the entire history of the sports world. There were those, however, who were willing to accept it. They decided to give him a real chance. . He was matched with Nino, a big heavyweight who does not hold the feminine portion of the population in such exalted esteem. Valdes belted him out in less than two rounds. Jackson couldn't blame that on his mother or the girls. Before the fight they shipped him up in the New York mountains and made sure that he was trained thoroughly. He was in perfect physical condition when the bell rang. There was only one thing wrong with the Hurricane he just couldn't fight. Valdes Could Give Marciano Trouble ... That victory made Valdes only logical contender for heavyweight title. The International Boxing Club hopes to match him with the winner of the Marciano - Ezzard Charles return bout in September. All Nino has to do now is sit around and ignore the girls, wait for his big opportunity. He insists that he can beat Marciano. "I'll knock him out inside of four rounds," he said after disposing of Jackson. "Marciano can't take my punch." That, of course,, is the prediction of a fighter flushed with victory. After belting Jackson out, Nino was of the opinion he could beat anyone in the house, like the great John L. Sullivan. , But it won't be that easy.Marciano has Charles in the impending return bout which is considerably tougher and dangerous than the likes of Hurricane Jackson. But Valdes is the kind of fighter who could give Rocky trouble. He Is big, takes a good punch and can throw bombs well. He could be the man they have been looking for!

    It isn't likely that Charles will beat Marciano in September, or any other month, for that matter. Ezzard lacks the heft and power. As a, boxer, he has the edge. But boxers are Marciano's meat. - Valdes, on the other hand, is a puncher. No one knows right now how good a puncher, but he is definitely a member of that school. He is tall and could keep the ever - charging Marciano off with his stiff left jab. Meantime, Hurricane Jackson should take stock, decide' that perhaps his mother isn't to blame, after all. In other words . . . there's no place like home, Tommy.
     
  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I didn't say Satterfield was the #1 contender. I said I thought he was actually next to Moore the most dangerous guy out there for Marciano.

    The weakness of your whole argument is that Moore is the real #1 contender, with wins over Valdes, Baker, Johnson, Satterfield, etc. Valdes is the paper #1 contender for the NBA.

    Your argument is why doesn't the champion fight all of the contenders. They never do. The best contenders are matched with each other with the winner getting the champ. I guess the public figures if you can't beat the other contenders, how do you beat the champion?

    There is certainly a lot of situations like this over the years. Why should Sharkey have had to fight Dempsey or Dempsey have had to fight Sharkey? Why not both fighting Tunney? Why did Ray have to fight Walcott? Why not both fighting Louis?

    The bottom line factor is that money must be invested to put on a heavyweight championship fight, and the promoter wants an attraction that will draw, especially back then. So it helps if the challenger has proven himself the best, not just one of the good ones. Plus the champion has the perk of not doing all the dangerous fighting for everyone else. It is for the contenders to winnow each other out, not the champ necessarily to meet all contenders. Valdes having losses to Moore, Baker, and Johnson and never reversing any of them put him under a cloud.

    Valdes in a paper sense and even in a real sense was a better contender than Don C, but was not the true #1 contender. That was Moore.
     
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  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    the odds on the Marciano-Don C fight have been mentioned. The 1976 Ring Record Book had odds for championship fights. Here are some which give some idea how seriously challengers were considered.

    Dempsey-Miske (7-1)
    Dempsey-Brennan (4-1)
    Dempsey-Gibbons (11-5)
    Dempsey-Firpo (3-1)
    Tunney-Heeney (15-1)
    Carnera-Loughran (4-1)
    Baer-Braddock (10-1)
    Louis-Farr (5-1)
    Louis-Mann (12-1)
    Louis-Galento (8-1)
    Louis-Pastor (6-1)
    Louis-Burman (20-1)
    Louis-Dorazio (20-1)
    Louis-Nova (14-5)
    Louis-Mauriello (9-1)
    Louis-Walcott (10-1)
    Marciano-LaStarza (4-1)
    Marciano-Charles (7-2)
    Marciano-Don C (7-1)
    Marciano-Moore (4-1)
    Patterson-Jackson (5-1)
    Patterson-Harris (4-1)
    Patterson-Johansson (4-1)
    Patterson-London (10-1)
    Patterson-McNeeley (8-1)

    I would note that Harris was not as weak an underdog as one might imagine. Heeney was way out compared to Tunney. Surprising how much stronger Farr was considered than Mann or Dorazio. Nova was given a good shot. Nova and Farr had wins over Baer. Note also the relatively short odds for Dempsey. He was not the overwhelming favorite in fights during his career that Louis was during his. Interesting that the odds for Gibbons against Dempsey were shorter than for Moore against Marciano.
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Valdes was not obviously superior to Cokkell in 1955. There was just one place difference in them in the ratings and the two were lumped together as likely opponents to Marciano. Nobody would be “lumping them together” if one was more outstanding than the other.

    NewYork fans had seen nino disappoint in the James J Parker fight. Slow hand clapped from the ring. It was awful. The Jackson win was better but it was only Jackson, a tv star who had blown fights before. In two fights with Archie Mcbride Nino was not considered superior. No wonder Nino was not considered superior to the #2 contender. The wins in Europe so far as paying fans in America were concerned were just wins in Europe. They never saw them. It helped his ranking that’s all.

    Cokkell was on a long run. And winning Stadium fights on the west coast. The fights went down well there and He beat Lastarza right after Rocky did. Don was a big underdog against Rocky and so would have been Nino.

    It’s amazing to think Cokkell was less of an underdog to Rocky as Walcott had been to Louis!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    For the last time so everyone on this forum can see....Valdes was named LONE logical contender for Marcianos crown in 1955....LONE get it? It's amazing how stubborn you are and cannot grasp this concept

    Valdes would have been nowhere near the 10-1 underdog cockell was against Marciano. Cockell was one of the biggest underdogs in heavyweight championship ring history that's how little the press thought of his chances!
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    "wins in Europe"

    You mean the way Valdes manhandled the best euro fighter in the world, number 6 rated Heinz Neuhaus? While cockell was busy fighting second rate British ham n eggers


    "Nino Valdes of Cuba demanded top rating among heavyweight contenders today because of his impressive victories over European champion Heinz Neuhaus, Sunday, and ex-world champion Ezzard Charles on August 11th. The kayo - at 2:10 of the 4th round - was witnessed by 19,000 fans here in the huge indoor Westfalen Halle. Most of the fans were bitterly disappointed when they saw Neuhaus suffer the first kayo in his career of 33 professional fights. They had figured him a potential world champion." -United Press

    • This victory elevated Valdes to #1 contender in Ring Magazine's heavyweight ratings.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    How can you be so sure. Have you seen championship odds that Edward posted. Lord Don was listed at 7-1 to Rocky. Walcott was 10-1 for Joe Louis!
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Don was beating Americans though. Lastarza and Mathews. They were higher regarded in America than Neuhaus was in America, and it is America after all where the World championship was held.

    When did Roland Lastarza of the Bronx, become a british ham and egger?
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes he was, by the NBA, right after the Jackson win in October 54. But he was passed over for a rematch with Charles. It was all forgotten about by the summer when It was decided Nino better beat one of the guys who had a win over him if he wanted a title fight. Which is not so unreasonable given the guy (Archie Moore) has also beat Johnson, satterfeild, Henry and Baker.

    At times like this a champ can stay busy fighting the world number two while something like that is sorted out. Especially if the number two is regarded as well as the number one was at that time.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    I have a different source that lists don 10-1
     
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    I give up. It's clear you only hear what you want to hear. It's been spelled out for you numerous times Valdes was the number 1 MOST LOGICAL contender from October 6 1954 THROUGH may of 1955. Do you understand this? It means when Marciano signed and fought cockell in 1955, Valdes was still the number 1 most logical contender

    It's been laid out to you clear as day cockell was not as well regarded as Valdes based on the fact the NBA deemed it fit to name a most logical contender.
     
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    So the number one most logical gets passed over for the number 2 because the number 1 most logical has to prove himself even more? :rolleyes:

    You realize how dumb that sounds?
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Valdes beat better Americans Charles and Jackson. Both higher rated than Matthews and lastarza were
     
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Nino Valdes was the clear #1 contender as of October 1954. Jim Norris, head of the IBC, met with Al Weill in October because he wanted Marciano and Valdes to fight in February 1955.

    Norris also wanted Moore and Olson to fight - and Moore said he would if the winner could fight Marciano.

    Don ****ell was the #2 contender.

    While he waited for he Marciano fight, Valdes fought twice - in December 1954 and January 1955 - scoring two knockouts.

    Yet, for some reason, Valdes is told he has to fight Moore and Marciano signs to fight the 10-1 lower-rated ****ell instead.


    The fact is Nino Valdes was the number-one contender. He had a ONE FOOT reach advantage over Marciano. (If Marciano beat guys with a greater reach advantage than that, please let me know.) And Valdes could bang.

    The head of the IBC wanted to make Marciano-Valdes and he wanted it in February 1955. Valdes was knocking guys out in tuneups preparing for Marciano. And Marciano's manager (also an IBC matchmaker) said they'd consider it, but instead he gave the shot to a guy more Marciano's size and rated below Valdes (****ell).

    Roadblocks were put in Valdes' path and, unfortunately, he didn't make it around them. You can say Valdes wouldn't have won against Marciano (I definitely favor Marciano). Maybe he wouldn't have. But the fact is we'll never know because Marciano's camp took steps to try to get around facing him.

    There was no rationale for the champ's camp to insist the light heavyweight champ fight the number-one heavyweight contender ... while the champ fought the (10-to-1 underdog) #2 contender instead.

    Moore wasn't the top contender at heavyweight. ****ell wasn't. Valdes was.

    The IBC officially named Valdes as "the logical" contender. (Since they couldn't name a "mandatory" that's how they identified the person they wanted a champ to fight next.)

    So, instead, something illogical took place.

    And, frankly, there was no rationale for having a former heavyweight champ (Braddock) who expressed his dislike for Valdes to be the ref and sole judge in an eliminator involving Valdes.

    Styles make fights. Moore "apparently" - since we haven't seen the film so we'll have to trust in Braddock's judgement - was a "just a little too slick" for Valdes in their eliminator.

    But we never saw Marciano fight a tall banger with a foot reach on him, either. I would've liked to have seen it.
     
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I have said all along Valdes should have got the defence where Charles rematched Rocky. After that, in the time that elapsed, it was decided Valdes better beat a guy who held a win over him if he wanted a title shot. Nothing wrong at all.

    By then Moore had a better record over contenders, including Nino and guys who beat Nino.

    Don Cokkell didn’t have guys who beat him knocking at the door for title fights. So they chose Don first whilst Nino tried to prove he could beat a guy he already lost to. He couldn’t.

    If Nino so overshadowed Cokkell it would never have came to that but it did because nino lost to so many guys nobody thought would beat Rocky. Bill gillium. Archie Mcbride. Nino was slow hand clapped out of Madison Square Garden against J. Parker, he was basically egged... he had good wins too of course. Charles and Jackson. But there were Johnson and Moore still winning who had beat him too.

    Don had a cleaner resume.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018