Does Sonny Liston divide opinion more than any other heavyweight?

You're assumptions are not so bright. "Honest and smart" as in people who actually take the time to learn about the craft, and understand it. Rather than people with surface level interpretations.

Classic McGrain take:
Protect the haters over the boxers.

I feel that every single poster here would agree that Primo Carnera is one of the best 1,000 heavyweights to ever box. And yet, half of them say he has no footwork and no defense.

What the heck do you think?

 

This is an exaggeration. Well, except for Perry who probably dismissed more good, contender- and championship-level fighters as "bums" and "nobodies" etc. than the rest of the forum combined. I don't remember you joining me in objecting to his language then though.

 

No youre not getting it.
"Honest and smart" were superlatives to describe people with an in depth understanding and adherence to a craft, its limitations, etc.

This has nothing to do with my opinion on smart and honest. As much as you love to think of me in a negative light with skewed motives, no, you're just not getting it.

It's like me criticizing your modding right?
I've never done it, so my criticisms, to you, sound glib and uninformed.
And that's part of the two-way relationship of any production that I referred to.

However, if you and I were to be participants in another forum for modding aficionados, where we trade 1,000's of posts about the subject, in depth and nuance, it would be ridiculous for me to continue repeating those glib criticisms.

You get it?

No. Posters using the word "bum" makes for an unpleasant atmosphere.
You decided that they were right, and you were wrong. You gave in. period.

You were wrong about being wrong.
The "bum talk" is stupid. It's completely useless as far as learning and research goes.
It's the dumbest, most idiotic inferiority-complex driven drivel that could ever be used as a serious boxing talking point. It has no place. And what does it result in? The main arguments on the forum being whether or not Champion X should be taken seriously as a boxer.

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There is nothing smart or honest about bum talk.
The boxers we discuss on our forums all excelled at their local levels.
Bum talk is for idiots, man. People who don't really follow the sport, or follow it in a very surface level disingenuous way.
You've allowed some of those idiots to carve a space in here comfortable, which is preventing other, more valuable members from speaking up and providing better value.

If I think this forum hasn't moved past the TMZ crap?
Duh. No, it hasn't.

If respecting world class boxers is too much to ask, then it has not.

Strange exaggerations? Are you not reading these threads?
Primo Carnera being a bum is very popular sentiment on ESB Classic.
You don't sound in tune.

 

I regularly speak against people on my side of the argument if they start the bum talk.
Even if it weakens the momentum of our argument.

I can recall instances where he replied to bum talk with bum talk, at which point it is pointless for me to target him for it. Which is why it should all just be done away with completely. These layers of complexity are non sense.

If you post here, you should have a basic respect for the subject, and the boxers. It should be a sticky at the top. And if people disparage boxers and other members in low taste, they should be banned or have their posts removed. Let them complain about free speech yada yada. Once they don't get their attention, and see the day-to-day talk continuing in a productive, sophisticated manner, they will adjust. If it's not meant to be, they won't.

If you cater to every single member, you end up with a **** pool.
You have to do some weed pulling to set the standards.

Being a member here should be a privilege you earn by being respectful to the subject and its practitioners. You're not asking for much. If people aren't intelligent enough to understand that, maybe they don't belong in a place with people who have spent hundreds of hours on the subject.

 

Many of primos opponents were paid to take dives.

 

I think assuming Sonny would have the same hunger and drive as champion that he did as a contender is a heck of a heck of an assumption given how his discipline fell off once he got the title.

My take? The best thing that happened for him legacy-wise was that he was froze out. The sooner he became champ, the sooner he'd have let up and lost. It's one thing to become champ; it's another thing entirely to have a long reign with it.

 

I no longer follow the forum due in no small part due to a pseudo intellectual self proclaimed academic moderator who seemed hell bent on limiting the discussions to accusations about those who took those 3 steps as having glass jaws so I’m sensitive to arguments taking issue with posters calling warriors bums. However, are you suggesting that someone should be banned if they call Primo Carnera, for example, a bum?

 

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Of course someone can disagree with me and be smart. You know better. Don't use lazy interpretations.

No, I didn't give up. I still fight the good fight.
I didn't give in. I stuck with the problem longer than you. I'm, here, talking to you right now. Using my mental resources to provide solutions.

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I didn't say this forum only has TMZ level content. I said it is covered with TMZ crap, and it is.

Don't be a hypocrite.
We're all just a little wild because we have to be.
You haven't implemented civility.

Look at how I started on the forum.
Kind, humble, respectful.
But you didn't do anything when my genuine posts were being harassed by agenda warriors. So I have to resort to what is necessary just so I can continue to learn about boxing. I'm sure the story is very similar for many here.

Relative to what?
You admitted you had this very same problem, but you gave in instead of curating the community.

Clearly. You're abstracting this to make excuses. It is present enough that it had you spending an overbearing amount of time addressing it, as you just said. You know what’s right. Sometimes you have to pause, look around, and ask “what values have I sacrificed to please a few?” It’s never too late to learn, adjust, and grow.

 

If the purpose of a post is to just crap on a fighter it should be deleted.

 

Hmm, I am torn on this. I am get so throughly turned off by arm chair ATGs , many of couldn’t run a mile in Butterbean’s shoes, never mind climb into the ring, disparage someone who didn’t only compete but also did so at high level and likely sacrificed so much. On the other hand I don’t think it should be necessarily a Valentine where a frank opinion about a fighters relative merits cannot be discussed. Depending on what you believe,Primo Carnera provides a good example of this dilemma.

 

I hear you.
There is this temptation to be timid to implement these kinds of standards because of accusations of censorship.
But as long as the mods are sensible, and follow a few simple standards themselves, it'll be an overall net benefit to the community.

You have to have a total lack of confidence in people to think that they cannot adjust to a higher standard of respect and civility on the forum. And with the way internet communities are evolving, the implementation of such standards is frivolous. It's basic stuff. You show your commitment to the community by pulling the weeds. That's how it's generally perceived now.

 

Perhaps I do lack confidence in people or maybe I was just in the General Forum . . .
Unfortunately you can’t have a “just don’t be a di**k” standard. I can understand someone questioning Prmo’s skills relative to other fighters but lets not lose sight of the fact that these guys gave their lives in some respects. This site, like the net as a whole falls short of its potential to share the knowledge, research and opinions of what would be judged in the outside world as boxing nerds. Where else could we hope to hear about Paulino Uzcudun at length?!

 

Sonny Liston fought in 9 World Championship rounds and lost two fights within those rounds.

He was capable of creating a better legacy but he didn't. I wouldn't disagree too strongly if someone wants to argue that he was the best Heavyweight between Joe Louis and the then Cassius Clay but surely to be rated as an ATG you must have a legacy worthy of such acclaim?