Does Sonny Liston divide opinion more than any other heavyweight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by LD Boxer-Puncher, May 15, 2018.


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  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Classic choke post....passive aggressive taking little subtle shots at Liston

    “Patterson and Ingo knocked eachother out”

    Patterson knocked out Johansson TWICE and won the trilogy. Johansson did NOT end Patterson’s reign because Patterson regained his title against Johannson then defended it successfully against him. Liston ended Patterson’s reign because Patterson NEVER became champion again

    “Some could say sonny got what was left after that”

    Are you insinuating Johannson fought a better version of Patterson than Liston did?

    Liston owned Patterson twice in the first round while Johansson got knocked out twice by Patterson

    Deal with it Liston was much better than Johansson at any point after 1958
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #61
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Can you show me where Rademacher,McNeeley and London were ranked above Liston?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    mcvey, May 17, 2018
    mcvey, May 17, 2018
    #62
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Choke will have an excuse for each guy, probably say each were “tuneups” that’s his favorite go to. Patterson was the king of tuneups apparently. Meanwhile, these top rated contenders had to sit on the sidelines and wait until they were way over the hill for Ali and Terrell to give them title shots out of sympathy nearly a decade later


    Liston Only got the title shot in 1962 because the public had put so much pressure on Floyd by that point he caved in. If either Johansson or Patterson defend against Liston in 59, the title would have belonged to Liston right then and there
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #63
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    When Radmacher fought Patterson Ingo was an unknown former fighter currently in prison.

    When London fought Patterson Brian was rated above Sonny Liston. If you don’t believe me I will post the ratings.

    When mcneeley fought Patterson it was a double header with Liston who fought Albert Westphal. The whole world new they were going to fight next.

    National Boxing Association ratings – via Google News

    (as of November 5, 1958)


    Champion: Floyd Patterson

    1. Ingemar Johansson

    2. Brian London

    3. Nino Valdez

    4. Zora Folley

    5. Willie Pastrano

    6. Eddie Machen

    7. Henry Cooper

    8. Roy Harris

    9. Mike DeJohn

    10. Sonny Liston
     
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    #64
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Sonny was not eligible until 1960 for an automatic title shot. By then he beat Machen, Harris and Folley.

    Think of Archie Moore. He had to beat Henry, Baker, Johnson and Valdes twice to earn a shot.
     
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    #65
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Since when did beshore Barone London Radamacher cockell mcneeley “earn” their title shots?

    I guess being lower rated slow and weak hitting gives you more of a chance at a title shot than being big hard punching and highly rated
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #66
  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Liston would have decimated either Patterson or Johansson in 1959. The Liston who destroyed Dejohn Bethea Valdes and Williams was a monster. He had come into his own. By 1959 he was well within the top 10 in the rankings and shot up to number 1 in 1960
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #67
  8. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    he doesnt get enough respect, he was denied the title for years that was rightfully his. Would have sent Rocky into retirement had prime liston been given the shot that he deserved and had rocky stayed on a bit longer.
     
    HerolGee, May 17, 2018
    HerolGee, May 17, 2018
    #68
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Perhaps? Who knows for sure?

    Maybe Floyd needed to be knocked out by Ingo in order for Sonny to beat him 3 years later? We don’t know.

    We can’t ever know. All we know is by 1960 Sonny Liston looked a terrific challenger. . And by 1962 Sonny looked like a terrific champion.

    Similarly 1958 Ingo looked an excellent challenger and by 1959 Ingo looked a terrific champion.

    What we do know about the two of them is that from the point of both Ingo and Sonny being “terrific looking champions” both became ex-champions one opponent later.

    Ironically it was Floyd who ended up with a better legacy than either of them.
     
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    #69
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Rocky would have needed to hang on all the way until 1960 for that to make any sense.

    1959 was the first time Sonny fought a fighter worthy of giving him a rating.
     
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    choklab, May 17, 2018
    #70
  11. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    thank you yes that is true, it would have been an unusual and unexpected stint from the rock.
     
    HerolGee, May 17, 2018
    HerolGee, May 17, 2018
    #71
    choklab likes this.
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This content is protected

    :lol: yes. Of course.

    This content is protected

    So how do you know if they're intelligent and honest?​


    I don't know what this refers to.

    I do know that this "out of tune" thing you keep harping on about is extremely bizarre. To me, you seem to be talking about a completely different forum. The one you are talking about literally does not exists. This "CMZ" level forum where everybody "shits on" fighters etc., it basically doesn't exist.

    Yeah, there's some salty exchanges. For sure there's some roughousing. And yes, people talk about fighters in a disrespectful fashion sometimes.

    But this idea you have, or are pretending to have, that numerous fighters are wildly and consistently disrespected, it's wildly out of tune. It's not real. It's a handful of heavyweights, and one or two other controversial fighters that come in for that sort of treatment. That's all. If you start a thread abut Olivares, or Castillo, or Saddler, or Locche, you don't get any of that. It's a tiny minority of posters on a tiny minority of fighters.

    However, they seem to be fighters that you consistently want to talk about. In addition, you are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Rocky Marciano. Marciano is a heavyweight you really seem to rate. It is a fact that a lot of other people will genuinely hold a much lower opinion of that fighter than you. This is because historical heavyweights are very visible. Lots of people see and know them. A full spectrum of opinions will have been held about them. They are almost all valid in some way, all interesting in some way.

    They see your posts. They believe these posts to be inaccurate or dishonest. Therefore they criticise the post and, by virtue of the fact that that post is about a given fighter, the given fighter.

    I think this is where your problem lies. You think that when this happens that poster is "shitting on" your fighter. That they've made an entirely negative post. Well, if you've made an entirely positive post, of course they are!

    You have expressed the opinion that when someone makes a post "just to **** on a fighter" that this post should be deleted and presumably that repeat offenders should be banned (otherwise you really need paid moderators who just go around making subjective calls on posts and deleting them). That will never happen here.

    It's your job to make the opposing case. These guys aren't doing anything wrong, unless they're going crazy. I personally feel that you do a pretty good job of overrating one or two of these guys. I think there is plenty to be said for the opposing opinion.

    But either way, it doesn't matter. This forum is about full and frank exchanges of views. If someone dooesn't like you can throw you your toys out of the pram or you can defend your view, or you can remove yourself. Only the first choice here is a bad one, to be honest.

    You want a forum that is comparable to a forum about Monet and Manet. No such public forum will ever exist about boxing. It's pure fantasy i'm afraid, and I, for one, am glad of that.
     
    McGrain, May 17, 2018
    McGrain, May 17, 2018
    #72
    JoffJoff likes this.
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    1. No we do know. Patterson had two tries from Liston and couldn’t last 3 minutes

    2. Johannson got to face Patterson. Liston has to face a prime Ali. That’s a huge difference in quality of opposition

    3. No Liston ended up with the better legacy than Patterson and Johansson. You are 100 percent wrong.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #73
    edward morbius likes this.
  14. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    LOL ... "Perhaps but we will never know for sure? " He knocked him out twice and each in the first round...And we never know if a Prime Lewis would take out an 1981 Ali because technically they never fought .. The agenda has officially ran it's course with that one !!!!
     
    surfinghb, May 17, 2018
    surfinghb, May 17, 2018
    #74
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I’m convinced now more than ever choke is just a Sonny Liston troll. He was actually trying to insinuate in his latest post that Patterson had a shot to beat Liston in 1959.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 17, 2018
    #75
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
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