Does Harry Wills have a case to be ranked higher than Jack Dempsey?

The problem with this is
3 of Wills 6 fights with McVey were when Sam was,34,35,37.
9 of his15 fights with Langford were when Langford was 34,34,35,35,36,36,36,37,38.And for 7 of them blind in one eye and with partial vision in the other for some of the later ones.
3 fights with Jeannette for which Joe was 33,34,39.Harry only won the last one.

 

You can make a case, I would disagree myself ,but you can make a case.

 

Wills struggled with Dempsey sparring partners. The Langford fights are overrated. Langford was fat and/or old for most of those fights. It's like Tunney fighting Dempsey 20 times between the second half of the 20s and the early 30s. At some point you have to say it's a prime great fighter beating on a past prime all time great who's best weight was middleweight. Not to mention he got knocked out twice by past prime Langford.

Now at the end of the day Wills did what Dempsey didn't but there has to be an asterisk next to it because it wasn't pride, glory, or courage that made Wills fight those guys so many times. It was for money because as you know those were the only fights he could get.

 

If Dempsey faces Langford 22 times, what is the record for the series?

 

Interesting that Langford has suddenly become nothing but a fatso.

Just an overview. Which white fighters beat these men. McVea? Never lost to a white fighter at all. The few white fighters who got into the ring with him lost--Colin Bell, Arthur Pelkey, Sandy Ferguson, George Rodel, Bob Devere.

Jeannette? Similar. He lost one fight via decision to a white fighter, Sandy Ferguson, and immediately KO'd him in a return go. The other white fighters-Georges Carpentier, Colin Bell, Arthur Pelkey, Tom Cowler, Bartley Madden-all lost to him.

Langford? Not as good. I don't know if the pre-Johnson defeats were to whites or not, but after the Johnson fight, Fireman Jim Flynn and Gunboat Smith got decisions over Sam. Both were KO'd in returns, Flynn several times. Willie Meehan beat an old Langford over four. Fred Fulton stopped an aging Langford on cuts.

Wills? Didn't lose to a white fighter until Sharkey when he was 37. Stopped Fulton, among others.

So there is very little intersection of the black and white sections of the heavyweight division, and when there is, the black section wins far more often than not.

Fat old Sam KO's Jack O'Brien in 1911, Sam McVea twice in 1912, Joe Jeannette in 1916, and Kid Norfolk in 1917,
as well as Wills a couple of times.

In 1914 Langford KO's Colin Bell, Gunboat Smith, and Bearcat McMahon. Smith and McMahon held un-avenged victories over Jess Willard.

So what evidence is there that the white heavyweights are better than these black fighters? None. Is there evidence the black fighters were better. Yes. Quite a bit. Even with Dempsey. Dempsey goes to a draw with Miske in 1918, between fights in which Norfolk, KO'd by both Langford and Wills, beats Miske twice.

As for Wills, his first win over McVea comes in 1915, when Sam was 31. To that point McVea had lost only to Jack Johnson, Ed Martin, Sam Langford, and Joe Jeannette. Wills stops McVea in 1918. The only other fighters to stop McVea are Johnson, Jeannette, and Langford (2). His first win over Langford comes in 1915 when Sam is 32. He doesn't beat Jeannette until Joe is about 40, but he never loses to him either.

The problem with arguing that Langford, Jeannette, and McVea were past it is that they were better, and generally viewed as better, than their white contemporaries. Why would beating younger, but inferior, fighters prove more.

 

"those were the only fights he could get."

And the point. This seems to be relying on the color line to dig up a point to criticize Wills on.

"Wills struggled with Dempsey sparring partners."

Well, Foreman and Liston lost to an Ingo Johansson sparring partner (Ali). What does being a sparring partner prove except that your being paid to serve as a sparring partner. Says nothing about your fighting ability. Jeffries was Corbett's sparring partner before the Fitz fight. He later KO'd both Fitz and Corbett.

Anyway, the struggle was that Wills was DQ'd for hitting and KO'ing Bill Tate on the break in the first round, a perhaps fishy business. In a rematch five days later in which neither man was paid, they went to a draw. Folks at the time apparently didn't pay much attention to any of this.

 

Ali wasn't a sparring partner of Ingo's at the time he beat Foreman and Liston. Matter of fact I'm pretty sure he only sparred Ingo once and Ali reportedly pieced him up and used him as the sparring partner. So not really the same thing at all.

And I just realized I mean't to refer to Langford when referencing his bouts with Dempsey sparring partners. Wills didn't really struggle although he did have a couple off nights. It shows Langfords form during his bouts with Wills because the guys that Dempsey used as personal punching bags were giving him fits.

 

I corrected myself in a later post on the sparring partners. I was thinking of Langford although Wills wasn't perfect against Dempsey sparring partners.

The Meehan fights were all 4 rounders. Put Meehan in for 8 or more rounds against Dempsey and he'd get slaughtered. Same with Wills. Pretty sure Meehan was known as king of the 4 rounders too. Wills only fought Meehan once. Dempsey fought him 5 times. It was 1-2-2 in favor of Meehan but it should have been 2-1-2. Should also be noted that all bouts took place in Meehan's backyard and that Dempsey was robbed in one of the fights.

Wills was 23 or 26 (depending on source) and in his prime when he finally beat the 32 year old fat Langford who previously drew with him and knocked Wills out. Wills was almost 5 years into his professional career. When Dempsey was offered the fight he was 2 years into his pro career, homeless, and eating in soup kitchens when he wasn't getting robbed by his manager.

Dempsey never ran out of the ring against Langford. Take your ass back over to boxing scene before I embarrass you again on the subject. Not to mention you're really out of your depth on this forum. It's not boxing scene where 90% of the guys in the history section barely know who Harry Greb is. You'll get pummeled here.

 

This is just speculation, but if Dempsey fought as often as Wills did, does he come out with the better record? Impossible to say, but I'd expect not.

I think it's more plausible to believe that if Wills fought the competition Dempsey did, he'd come out with a better record, maybe in less convincing fashion.

 

What does being a ferocious starter have to do with it? Meehan was a slap and run type of fighter but you wouldn't know anything about the subject.

Langford was 30 lbs removed from his best fighting weight when he fought Wills and 31 years or older. His prime was in the rear view mirror. Still want to go down this road?

Dempsey never "publicly refused to fight Langford stating 'I don’t want to lose'". His manager, who had a reputation for robbing his fighters, mentioned the fight to him and Jack said no. Knowing he'd get slaughtered.

I never made fun of Langford. Stop letting your emotions get in the way. Jeanette never ran Dempsey out of the ring.

You've been here 13 years? That's not something to be proud of lol. Go ahead and report me. Gonna get your mommy while you're at it? Lmao **** off.

 

Read this post twice, folks.