Does Harry Wills have a case to be ranked higher than Jack Dempsey?

If he faces the fat,old ,half blind version, I'd guess he would do better than Wills , with no ko losses.

 

Who says they were all inferior ?If they didn't face them surely we don't know? Langford refused to fight Kaufman got stopped twice by Fulton whom Dempsey destroyed,lost to Smith and Flynn.
OBrien was all used up when Langford got him in 1911.

You can't say because A,beat B he is necessarily going to beat C too ,you know as well as anyone boxing doesn't work like that.
Another factor often overlooked is that in some of the series they engaged in they may not have been going "full out."
Wills and McVey were thrown out of one ring for not giving their best.Langford turned up as fat as a bullock for several of those fights how much credit do we give his adversary for beating him then?
Langford himself said, once he knew he was never going to get a title shot his dedication to training went out he window.Clay Moyle has quotes to this effect in his excellent biography on Langford.
You can take results in their isolation and make them imply anything you want. eg
Langford lost to Dempsey's regular sparring partner Tate twice.
He drew with Johnson's sparring partner George Kid Cotton .
He drew with Battling Jim Johnson described by Mendoza regularly on this Forum as a journeyman.
Drew with Sandy Ferguson regularly disparaged by the same Mendoza as poor.
Joe Jeannette
Drew with "journeyman" Battling Johnson twice.Was beaten by him once.Lost to "poor" Ferguson.
Many thought he got a gift against the 20 years old Carpentier too.
Let's also not forget their respective weights.
Carpentier168.5lbs Jeannette184.5lbs, not such an impressive result when looked at closely is it?

 

The problem with this premise is Ali went onto become the consensus number one heavyweight of all time ,whereas Tate never rose above journeyman level.
ps Ali sparred a round with Ingo, he was never his sparring partner and you know it.

 

It would have been ridiculous for Dempsey to fight both Langford ,McVey, and Jeannette in 1916 ,he simply was not ready for them at that stage of his career.
Dempsey v Kid Norfolk in1917?
In1917 Norfolk lost to washed up middleweight Gus Christie and Gunboat Smith.
That same year Dempsey chased Smith for 4rds winning an easy decision he then ko'd him in a round a year later.
"The United Press reported: "Jack Dempsey won this fight and won it handily."

Newspaper article: "Chases Gunboat Around the Ring" The Tacoma Times, October 3, 1917"

In1917 Norfolk was also ko'd by the now half blind Langford whose eyesight had been permanently ****ed up by Fred Fulton just 6 months earlier. Why didn't Dempsey fight Norfolk in1917 and Godfrey in1926?
Why didn't Wills?
Wills fought Norfolk in1922. Wills 6'2" 211.75lbs Norfolk 5'8" 176lbs
6 inches height disparity and nearly 36lbs weight advantage.
Bill Brennan,Billy Miske,Tommy Gibbons,Gene Tunney .would have been serious tasks for Wills at different stages of their careers.

 

SMH

 

Fulton jabbed Sam's head off let's not imply it was some kind of fluke injury that resulted in Langford's defeat.
There is a solid case for saying Wills best two wins during Dempsey's prime are over Firpo and Fulton, both recycled Dempsey victims and both disposed of much quicker by Jack!

 

Wills also lost to Langford when Sam was 34 and 35.

 

You have absolutely no evidence that Dempsey was a racist. His closest friend was a black man for christ's sake. You people are ridiculous.

So are you just going to ignore the fact that Dempsey tried to make the fight? Ignore the fact that his manager and promoter were both adamantly against a mixed-race bout? Ignore the fact that Wills refused to fight Tunney which would have put him in position for them to give him a fight with Dempsey? I'll tell you this, if Wills had beat Tunney with promise of a fight with Dempsey if he won then I would openly say that Dempsey ducked him had they still not fought. Even when the facts show Dempsey cooperated to make the fight.

Doc Kearns matched Gibbons. Rickard, who was on trial for statutory ****, disproved of the match up saying it would ruin Dempsey's reputation. Don't get me wrong I'd have liked to see Greb and Dempsey square off but you act like it's completely Dempsey's fault. He wasn't a match maker he was just a fighter. I have never seen so much hate for a fighter to where it gets to the point that they are blamed for the failures of their managers. Do you treat Tyson with this hostility for not fighting Holyfield and Lewis sooner?

 

I guess you can't connect the dots. Fine, I'll do it for you.

Gibbons was on a win streak with 21/26 wins by knockout. People wanted to see him or Greb fight Dempsey but they figured Gibbons was the better of the two. Eyewitnesses who saw Gibbons train prior/during the bout say he went stale in the gym. The fight was uneventful with both guys looking mediocre at best and very beatable. They thought that Gibbons had a lot more in him and the fight wasn't an accurate display of what he could do.

Now do I really have to go on or can you put the rest together yourself?

 

Knew you'd use the boxrec weights. If you read the Jan. 1960 article from ebony magazine you'll read that Dempsey wouldn't let Johnson see what he weighed. That's because he weighed less than Johnson. It's an intimidation factor. The article also lists Johnson as 6'2". Do your research instead of taking things as absolute without looking into it.

Just because he had two fights doesn't mean he got paid. Read his autobiography. The onus is on you to educate yourself. Not me. His weight is also listed incorrectly against Anderson. In his auto he says he weighed 173 to Anderson's 215.

Miske fought Norfolk twice in 1917 and 1919. You missed that doing your last minute skim of boxrec. It was in the 1919 fight that Miske that was close according to the Pittsbugh Post. You didn't know he had Bright's disease when he fought Dempsey? That speaks volumes.

Dempsey wasn't forced to draw the color line by his manager and promoter until he won the title. Even after he won it he was cooperating to make the Wills fight. Clearly the color line was just empty words to appease certain people. It's common knowledge that Kearns forbid him from fighting a black fighter.

The rest of your post is full of lies and misrepresentations that I have corrected on here ad nauseam.

 

Zing.