Does Harry Wills have a case to be ranked higher than Jack Dempsey?

It will hard hard to top, but there is plenty of time left in this day.

 

I know when Wills beat Langford I posted all the dates on the other thread!FFS! You've now extended your dates to 1915 originally you said 1914 then I pointed out to you that Wills never beat any of them until 1915 you conveniently changed the last date ,Do you think I'm stupid?

My point which obviously escaped you is that as late as 1916 and 1917 Langford then 34 and 35 beat Wills!
Wills never beat any of the top trio of blacks until 1915 and he didn't beat Jeannette until 1919 that is FACT.
Compton has no time for Dempsey I don't consider him objective on the subject.
Nobody knows for sure when Langford was born not his manager Joe Woodman or himself, nor his biographer the date Box Rec has is a guestimate! I know this because I've talked with the foremost expert on Sam about it!
I know more about Langford than you do my friend.
For example I know the day after Jack Johnson lost his title to Willard, Langford barely managed to scrape a close decision win over Battling Jim Johnson.I know that a week later he entered the ring against Jeannette as fat as a pig and was clearly beaten.I also know that he and his opponent
Porky Flynn were both tossed out of the ring in Sam's next fight for not trying.I know Langford weighed 192lbs fo his next fight against Battling Jim .I know that Langford was fat and not in shape when he lost to Wills on May1st 1914 .I know he cut Wills above the left eye I know that he knocked 2 of Harry's teeth out in the 8th round.That Sam went for the ko in the 9th and 10th but lack of condition hampered him and Wills got the dec. That Wills asked Langford to relinquish his Colored Championship belt as he had defeated him and Langford gave him a pawn ticket and told him to help himself! I know that Woodman,Sam's manager stated 1915 would be Langford's last year as a boxer.That tells you a lot about the 1915 Langford doesn't it? I know that in the 6th round against Fulton having lost the vision of his left eye,[caused by a right hand to the temple]Langford lost nearly all the vision in his right eye and his manager pulled him out before the 7th rd started. I know that after their Toledo fight which Wills won, both men were barred from fighting each other in that town again as the Toledo Commission did not think they gave of their best.

 

Jeffries , Corbett, Spinks, were champions with similar experience.Langford's own manager wanted him to quit boxing in1915.

 

Wills losing to them proved he wasn't ready for them and the wisdom of Dempsey giving them a miss at that stage of his career!

 

You just hate Dempsey, you've been on a hate fest all bloody week end its become an obsession with you and you are being abetted/played by the chief hater on this forum Mendoza . I can see the strings on your arms!
Judge a man by the company he keeps and a poster by those who agree with him and give him likes'!

 

Nobody knows when he was born not even you!

 

What makes you think I haven't read the Ebony article--

This is what it actually says about the weights:

On Johnson--"his fighting weight was a broad-shouldered 173 lbs., the same weight he carried into the ring against Jack Dempsey."

"Newspaper reports of their meeting on July 13, 1916, at the Harlem Sporting Club in New York City listed Dempsey's weight as 182, some nine lbs. heavier than Johnson."

It goes on to say the weights have been disputed,

"Ned Brown, a New Yorker who as an eyewitness to the 1916 fight and now handles Dempsey's public relations, remembers Johnson as 'a big powerful guy who outweighed Dempsey by at least 25 lbs.'"

The article clearly states that Johnson weighed in, so Johnson's given weight of 173 should be correct. Johnson is quoted as saying Dempsey refused to allow him to see his weight. (But wouldn't other observers? Is that where the newspaper quotes of Dempsey's weight come from?)

For me a 25 lb. weight pull for Johnson sounds ridiculous. That would make Dempsey a welter. Why would Dempsey bother keeping his weight a secret as his being so much lighter would have been obvious to everyone, especially Johnson.

The article goes on about Ned Brown-

"His memory, of course, may be found exaggerated with the passing years for nowhere else is there any record of the weight being in Johnson's favor."

You say the article also lists Johnson as 6' 2"

Actually, it does not. There is no reference to his height. Really I have no idea how tall Johnson was, as these height references are always all over the place, but off his photos, he does not appear to be particularly tall and thin. Given his build and his known weight, I would guess that something like 6' is ballpark.

"In his autobiography he says he weighed 173 to Anderson's 215."

I don't know what this has to do with anything, but it seems to indicate Dempsey was about the same weight as Johnson around this time.

"Read his autobiography"

I have, and his description of the Flynn fight was so inaccurate (Dempsey getting up several times with his brother Bernie tossing in the towel) that it calls into question his overall accuracy. He might have been telling the truth as he remembered it, but memory confusions are common with anyone, and old boxers have the added problem of having taken a lot of punches to the head in their youth. Bottom line is I don't accept any autobiography as necessarily being that accurate.

"The onus is on you to educate yourself. Not me."

My education was that when you quote you quote precisely, and with direct quotes so the reader can evaluate for himself the relevance of what you are quoting. This article did not claim Johnson was heavier than Dempsey. On the contrary. You gave a very misleading reading of what was said.

"Miske fought Norfolk twice in 1917 and 1919. You missed that in your last minute skim of box rec."

Actually, I would use the records for Miske and Norfolk given in the 1976 Ring Record Book if I had to. Anyway, I have mentioned on one of these threads that Norfolk defeated Miske both before and after Dempsey fought a draw with him. Don't recall which thread. But really I knew this back in 1976 when I purchased the RRB which is over forty years ago.

"Dempsey wasn't forced to draw the color line by his manager and promoter until he won the title."

So.

"Even after he won it he was cooperating to make the Wills fight."

Not enough for it to actually be made.

"Clearly the color line was just empty words to appease certain people."

???? It did seem to keep black fighters from fighting for the title. Why is that empty words?

Here is what the Ebony article had to say about it:

"Whether or not Johnson's pounding of Dempsey had anything to do with his self-imposed ban against taking on any Negro heavyweights in a championship match after he won the title is a matter of much conjecture. His handlers explained that he was merely following a 'white only' policy instituted by previous champions in shunning Negroes."

My only comment is that if an adult allows himself to be "handled" then he becomes responsible for what his handlers do.

 

Wills record is too murky for me to place above Dempsey. The immense repetition of a handful of specific opponents lends me to question if those bouts were all on the level.
His career is just not as well covered as Dempsey’s at least to my knowledge. I don’t know if some of his wins, were controversial or dubious etc. I do know Dempsey was more durable having only been stopped once in his career, and their is even some debate to that, to Wills 5 stoppage losses. Six stoppages if you read some reports of the Sharkey bout that state the ref stopped the bout on DQ to prevent the inevitable ko that was coming.
I believe Jack performed better against better versions of Fulton and Firpo than Wills did.
Wills however did better against Meehan.
The Lester Johnson bout was pre prime Dempsey and very close whether you believe Dempsey merited a draw or a close loss. I don’t know the reports on Wills bouts but he credited with 2 wins against him. A newspaper verdict and an official verdict.
A lot hinges on how much people feel the trio of Langford, Mcvey and Jeanette had left when Wills was facing them. For me, they were all passed prime and i’m Not sure if they were even on the level some of the time. Too many variables for me to place Wills above Dempsey.

 

Who said Dempsey was a racist.

It was just in his financial and career interest to not risk fights against tough black fighters.

I don't get that excited about criticizing Dempsey for defending against Gibbons. Gibbons in the long view of things was a solid challenger. But Gibbons had lost to Greb in an apparent elimination match. Hard to ignore that completely.

"the facts show"

Dempsey had apparently signed an exclusive contract with Rickard when he negotiated with another promoter for the Wills fight. Didn't he know that the fight would be blocked? Hard to believe he was that naive.

 

"They thought that Gibbons had a lot more in him and the fight wasn't an accurate display of what he could do."

So "thought" trumps results. Why even have a fight between Greb and Gibbons?