Who fought better versions of Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey? Johnson or WIlls?

Sam McVey's record before the first fight with Jack Johnson:

1902-03-29 Oxnard Courier (Oxnard, CA) (page 3)
McVey is a colored gentleman who has been employed for several months past in Roche & Rowe's livery stable. He has a trainer here from Los Angeles, and is a quick, handy boxer for a man of his tremendous size. McVey has been in eight contests--six out and out victories and two draws. Sullivan is white, and has a reputation as a clean, gentlemanly boxer with a good record of victories. He is training in Santa Paula.


1902-11-08 Oxnard Courier (Oxnard, CA) (page 10)
McVey is a native of Texas and will be twenty years old on his birthday, the 24th of February. He has spent most of his life in California, though at odd times he has traveled, going as far as Australia. He is modest, unassuming and health to perfect habits--he neither smokes, drinks or carouses. He had been in the ring twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia, and had sparred with good men. Since coming here McVey has won these events:
McVey--Sullivan, seven rounds.
McVey--McCell, three rounds.
McVey--Fogarty, six rounds.
McVey--Russell, five rounds.


1903-02-21 Oxnard Courier (Oxnard, CA) (page 5)
Sam McVey came to San Francisco from Melbourne, Australia a little over two years ago having begun his pugilistic career before he crossed the waters by defeating a heavy weight colored fighter by the name of Peter Jackson in his characteristic way, by putting him out of commission in two rounds.
He next fought a fight in San Francisco that was the longest of his career, as it took him eight rounds to defeat his man. A little later he defeated Lee Haley in Salinas in seven rounds and since that time all of his goes have been managed by W. A. Roche and pulled off either in Oxnard or Los Angeles. The strange part of it is that he was not discovered in the game by some of its lovers earlier in his history. It is probably accounted for in the fact that he never at any time tried to force himself before the public.
When McVey came to Oxnard less than a year ago he entered the employ of W. A. Roche in his livery stable and Mr. Roche, who took considerable interest in sports boxing etc., learned of the adaptability of the big active boy for the ring and immediately began to train him.
The first fight brought off after these two men hooked up together was with McCall of Los Angeles, who was defeated in three rounds, next came Jack Fogarity, who stood a terrific battering for five rounds. "Big" Fred Russell was knocked cold in the same number. In this fight McVey was under the training of Hank Griffin and showed marked improvement.
The story of Toothpick Kelley in the four round go in Los Angeles is a familiar one as is the minute story of Jack Lavelle, last month.


Bouts confirmed by primary sources:

1902-04-12 George Sullivan (Oxnard, CA) W-KO6; reported in 1902-04-19 Oxnard Courier (page 9)

1902-07-19 Herb McKell (Oxnard, CA) W-KO5; reported in 1902-07-26 Oxnard Courier (page 1)

1902-10-09 Jack Fogarty (Oxnard, CA) W-KO5; reported in 1902-10-11 Oxnard Courier (page 5)

1902-11-01 Fred Russell (Oxnard, CA) W-KO5; reported in 1902-11-08 Oxnard Courier (page 10)

1903-01-06 Toothpick Kelly (Los Angeles, CA) W-KO4; reported in 1903-01-07 Los Angeles Herald (page 5) and 1903-01-07 The Los Angeles Times (page 5)

1903-01-31 Jack Lavelle (Oxnard, CA) W-KO1; reported in 1903-02-07 Oxnard Courier (page 1)

 

Question Senya, do you believe McVey(McVea) had more fights than boxing record indicates prior to fighting Johnson?

 

It is irrelevant. I posted all information there is on his supposed earlier bouts, prior to his coming to Oxnard. You can make your own assumption based on that info.

 

McVea was rated top three in the world when Johnson beat him, and also when Wills beat him.

It comes down to whether you like the green version better than the shopworn version.

Make no mistake, the teenage Wills was a top contender.

a number of newspapers were saying that he was the outstanding challenger to Jeffries title, and he had a first round knockout over a still dangerous version of Denver Ed Martin.

 

The devil is in the detail here.

If he was based on Oxnard, and traveling to Australia to fight, then he obviously wasn't a novice with a few fights!

Do you think that he would have traveled that sort of distance, if he was not some sort of force to be reckoned with?

 

From Senya

1916-01-04 The Daily States (New Orleans, LA) (page 12)
WILLS WINS BLACK TITLE
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WILLS BEATS 'BOSTON TAR BABY' FOR BLACK HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE
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Negroes Fight Fastest Twenty Rounds Seen In An Orleans Ring In Recent Years--Local Negro Is Now Top of His Race.
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By COL. CLUKE.

Jess Willard, heavyweight champion of the world, is fortunate Harry Wills of New Orleans and Sambo Langford of Boston are negroes. If they were any other color, the celebrated "wild west hero" would be forced to defend his title against either man with a possibility of being bumped off the Queensberry throne.

In earning a twenty-round decision over Langford Monday night at the Howard-street arena, Wills convinced a majority of the big assemblage he is championship material. Langford, too, showed himself a great fighter, for in keeping Wills busy from start to finish, the defeated negro put up a very creditable scrap.

The black men, contrary to the word passed down the line, "who's turn is it?" gave a corking-good crowd a run for its money. It is doubtful if any heavyweight scrap of recent years measured up to it for speed. And as for the blows traded, something more than a wallop is necessary to put Sambo down for the count of ten.

With the possible exception of the twelfth when Sambo tried every trick he knew to ease the dreamland wallop over and had Wills worried, and in the eighteenth, Wills sending the Boston black to his corner partly groggy, there was not the least semblance of a knockdown.

Wills Loses Head When He Is Hurt.

Wills, however, is an improved fighter. He lacks experience to cope with a man of Langford's ability. His biggest fault is the same as when he fought McVey, losing his head when hurt. Langford peppered Wills with slashing rights and lefts to the jaw at different periods and in almost every instance, the native black opened up and narrowly escaped the deciding swing.

For the first ten rounds, and it is doubtful if two middleweights could have gone the same pace as the negroes, Wills, because of his advantage in height and reach, stabbed Langford with a left jab, using his right at times for a cross and hooking it to the wind. Wills showed a variety of punches that if used by Willard or some other fighter, would make him the best touted man in the heavyweight division.

In the second half of the scrap, though a trifle slower, excelled any black bout staged here in the past four years. Langford realized his only chance to earn the decision was by dropping his opponent to the cloth and the Tar Baby began a systematic attack, loafing one round and cutting loose with everything he had in the next.

Wills Shows Respect For Sambo's Left.

Wills continually retreated during the twenty periods and in the closing number hardly tried to land a blow. The local negro was also guilty of an unusual lot of holding, especially in the last half of the mill. Another referee would have probably penalized him for these tactics. It was evident throughout that Wills had a lot of respect for Langford's left, as every time the men locked, Harry tucked Sambo's southpaw lunchhook beneath his arm and held it as tight as if it were in a vise.

Just how much stamina Langford possesses, even though he is supposed to be a "fat old man" who has seen his best days in the ring, isn't difficult to imagine when he assimilated all of Wills' wallops to the midsection and continued to carry the fight to his opponent.

If Sambo is ready for the scrap heap, he surely must have been a great fighter when at his best.

In the preliminary mill, Young Kid Green lost a decision to Eddie Palmer.

According to the announcement made from the ringside, Langford and Wills fought for a $1,000 side bet. The currency posted was in the shape of a check. Tommy Burns handed it over to Wills at the conclusion of the mill.

 

What are your sources for McVea being top 3 in the world in 1904?

This article from senya implies McVea was very green and “will never make a fighter”...basically saying he needed big time seasoning.



1904-04-23 The San Francisco Call (San Francisco, CA) (page 11)
JACK JOHNSON KNOCKS OUT McVEY IN THE TWENTIETH ROUND
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HEAVY-WEIGHT CONTEST IS POOREST SEEN IN THIS CITY IN MANY YEARS
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Spectators Applaud Satirically the Feeble Efforts of the Colored Gladiators and Then Silently Retire From the Scene of the Alleged Battle---McVey Shows No Qualifications as a Boxer
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Twenty seconds before the close of the twentieth round in their fight in Mechanics' Pavilion last night Jack Johnson knocked out Sam McVey. This brought to a close one of the poorest fights ever seen in this city. It marked the first exhibition of the Shasta Club, which butted into the boxing same here only to give it a decided setback.

For a time the spectators applauded satirically the feeble swings and jabs of the boxers. Then they jeered the alleged gladiators, and finally many of them made their way out of the building, leaving a small proportion of the attendance to sit out each tiresome round.

McVey proved possessed of but one quality necessary in the make-up of a fighter. He could and did take a lot of punishment without flinching. Beyond this he did nothing. For round after round he did not land a blow on the elusive Johnson, and his mighty right arm, with its ridges of thews and sinews, might as well have been strapped to his side for all the use he made of it.

McVEY CANNOT PUNCH.

He did not land an effective blow throughout the fight, Johnson never giving him an opportunity to get set. With all his strength and ruggedness, he showed no signs of aggressiveness, and will never make a fighter.

Johnson showed all the cleverness for which he is noted. He landed an incredible number of blows on McVey's head, but he never followed up his advantage. He had his opponent in distress several times, but he refused to take a chance and backed away out of danger. All sorts of remarks were directed at the boxers, but the one that brought down the house was uttered by some one at the ringside, who said: "Cease this brutality." As hardly a good blow had been struck for ten rounds the humor of the remark pleased the weary spectators.

CONTEST ENDS SUDDENLY.

The sudden end of the contest proved a surprise. There had been but little work done from the twelfth to the nineteenth round. In the latter Johnson took a chance and staggered McVey with rights and lefts to the head. McVey was nearly out, the principal damage being done him by a hard left to the body. When he came up for the last round his head had hardly cleared and Johnson went at him again.

He landed repeatedly to the head of the Oxnard man, and then scored quickly with a right and left to the jaw. The force of the blows turned McVey completely around and he fell a huge, limp mass, face downward on the paddock floor. He lay there breathing heavily until he had been counted out, when his seconds assisted him to his corner.

The attendance was small, the receipts of the gallery being only $850. Joe Walcott and the Dixie Kid, who are to fight at Colma next Friday night, were introduced by Billy Jordan.

JOHNSON STARTS WELL.

Johnson started in the first round as though he had made up his mind to win decisively. He was after McVey at once with right and left to the head and knocked the Oxnard man down with a clean left to the jaw. He caught McVey coming in and slightly off his balance. This was near the end of the round. Johnson went after him again in the second round, sending in rights and lefts with great regularity. McVey seemed to shake up Johnson early in the third round with a right to the body and then missed some wild swings to the head. Johnson landed two hard rights to the body in the fourth round. Johnson varied the fifth round by trying first for the head and then for the body.

Johnson staggered McVey in the sixth round with a right to the head, but the bell stopped proceedings before he could do any further damage.

The fight slowed down to a snail's pace in the seventh and eighth rounds and the crowd yelled to "throw them out." Johnson livened things up in the ninth round, staggering McVey with a right to the head. Most of the fighting done during the evening was in this round. Johnson wrestled McVey down in the tenth round and kept up his piston rod left.

Johnson was busy in the eleventh round but did little damage. In the twelfth he had McVey groggy again, but let him come to. There was no fighting from this point on to the nineteenth and twentieth rounds.

 

Promoters were pushing for Jeffries to defend against the winner of the contest and an offer of$20,000 had already been made for Jeffries to defend against McVey it was felt he was the only man who, at207lbs was a physical match for Jeffries.As Janitor mentioned earlier the $20,000 offer used to be attached to the Denver Ed Martin v McVey fight on Box Rec.
It is undeniable that McVey was a top contender for Jeffries crown.

 

The facts are Dempsey avoided Langford, and even if Langford was past it by 1920, he earned a title shot based on his career. Boxing is full of fights like these.

If you bothered to check, Langford was very active in 1920, and winning a lot beating names like McVey, Clark, and Godfrey. Every hear of those guys? He was not getting stopped. Not even vs. Harry Wills, who as we know Dempsey also avoided.

Try to be fair. Langford also beat Jack Thompson in 1920 ( the year we are talking about ) ...TWICE. Your research is awful. You actually make a case for Langford by listing Thompson's name.

Who was Joe Borker? Was he friends with Willie Meehan, who also beat Dempsey? ( A bit of humor ).

I'm starting to think you have mental health issues. IF that is the case I won't embarrass you anymore, just come clean. , I correctly you monthly here. Your delusional. Acting like you are correct then using bad examples to " attempt " to prove something, only to be shown your not making any sense!

Maybe this is why you quote books so often, thinking on your own doesn't come easily for you. You are a person who guy claimed a 137 IQ, which is within the top 4% in the world. Now that is funny...my advice to you is get yourself checked out.

 

The guy was 19. Raw. A kid. Not old enough to buy a drink. Very few fights.

If you bothered to watch the films you see how crude Sam McVey actually was vs Jim Battling Johnson and that match happened close enough to his prime. As a teenager, he was even less experienced and skilled.

Use your logic. Yes--Johnson won easily over Sam McVey in 1903 but he had his hands full in other fights vs Ferguson or Martin. This suggests these opponents were MUCH better than the teenage Sam McVey at the time. Make sense? No agenda here, just use your reason.

The win in a research sense means very little. Johnson beat a very young and green Sam McVey, He did not beat the prime version of Mcvey from 1907-1914,not even close!

 

Johnson fought them when they were undersized or green, Wills fought them when they were oversized and/or old.

 

Actually Dempsey agreed to fight Langford in 1916, he just wanted more experience first.

 

Langford and McVea were both 31 when wills first fought them..how is that old? Jeanette was 33 when wills first fought him.

All three men were rated top 3 in the world in 1913-1914 when wills fought them

 

Making more stuff up huh?

 

In those days 31 is old for a fighter. Especially one that weighs 30 lbs over his prime weight and has well over 100 fights. Probably close to 200 considering undocumented bouts. 33 is clearly old for a fighter. Do you really want to try making the argument it isn't?

Which sanctioning body ranked them as top 3? Oh wait...