Who rates higher all time Jeffries or Dempsey?

Dempsey definitely missed more key contenders than Dempsey did.

That does not mean that his opponents were better of course, but they were better qualified.

On your second point of Dempsey having more fights, that can definitely be argued both ways.

Jeffries was thrown to the wolves from the opening gate, and still remained unbeaten, while Dempsey was fighting tomato cans for a long time.

Dempsey was certainly more dominant in his key fights, but Jeffries could argue that he was fighting better qualified challengers.

If the size of their opponents is important to you, then certainly Dempsey has got it by a mile.

Dempsey beating Jeffries is certainly plausible, but as you say, it is an educated guess.

I feel that I kind of have to give the nod to Jeffries based on his better record on paper.

 

On Jan. 30, 1950 in New York the Associated Press honored Jack Dempsey as the Greatest Fighter of the First Half-Century.

This was shortly after Joe Louis had retired as champion.

Jack Dempsey was better than Jim Jeffries.

 

I am not even sure that the word "better" is useful here!

History sometimes favors the bolder over the better, when you compare the great heavyweights.

 

Great summation.

I have a couple of comments or quibbles-

"global icon"

In the US, all sports exploded in the 1920's. The highest paid attendance prior to the 1920's was I believe 42,000 for a world series game. After 1920, huge crowds exploded for several sports. Army-Navy, and Notre-Dame-USC among others drew crowds of about 120,000. Even with its extensive playing field, baseball drew a crowd of 85,265 at Yankee Stadium on September 9, 1928, larger than the crowds for Dempsey-Sharkey or Tunney-Heeney.

As for the world, Dempsey had the advantage that there were contenders from continental Europe, Carpentier, and South America, Firpo. But doesn't the existence of these contenders show the sport had already spread beyond its English language homelands?

So I wonder if Dempsey was the icon who made boxing a global sport, or his rise to global icon was because boxing was already well on its way to spreading across the globe.

"styles of opposition"

Really I don't see any difference. Small technicians--Choynski and Corbett. Boxer punchers--Fitz for certain.
Sluggers--Sharkey.

"Size"

Okay. Dempsey met some bigger men. Two points though. Would Jeff rate higher if he fought some big guy like Dunkhorst, who was KO'd by Fitz?

And these big guys were not that good and all lost to men even smaller than Dempsey.

Lost to
Willard:
Bearcat McMahon 175 lbs.
Gunboat Smith 180 lbs.

Morris:
Billy Miske 178 lbs
Jim Flynn prob about 175 (weight 171 for Kaufman four months before beating Morris)

Firpo:
Angel Rodriguez 167 lbs.

Fulton:
Marty Burke 176 lbs.

 

I have no problem with one being ranked just over the other, but I see them as being quite close:
10. Frazier
11. Dempsey
12. Jeffries
13. Marciano
14. Bowe
15. W Klitschko
Then again, my silly list changes all the time

 

Yes yes closed thread

 

You don't understand the concept of a lineal champion do you? Some considered Jeffries champion as he never lost his title in the ring upon his return.

Adam Pollack did not try to find new fights, he bought access to a few papers for this book. He also did not research Jeffries in Europe, where he Ko' many men, at least six.

 

I'll just leave it at this. Dempsey is the better fighter in my eyes.
If they fought prime for prime Dempsey would be all over him giving him a worse beating than Fitz did in there second fight except Dempsey does what Fitz couldn't and finishes the job.

 

Not much between them i reckon any which way.

 

Would Jeffries rate higher if he met men who weren't coming out of retirement were over 190lbs,weren't 12 years older ,men like Johnson and McVey.? What do you think?

 

I realise I didn't get your joke the other day ,so I'm obviously a bit slow,but can you explain the relevance of Firpo losing his 3 rd fight to Rodriguez in1918 when he fought Dempsey in1923?
Further can you elucidate on the connection between Morris losing to Flynn in1911 ,isn't it just as pertinent that he subsequently beat him 3 times afterwards?
Bearcat McMahon's weight on CBZ is given as 179/187lbs.
Are you sure Smith weighed 180lbs against Willard and are you aware quite a few thought Willard should have gotten the NWS?

 

I appreciate your analysis. I typically rate based on Tenure as Champion, Quality of Opposition, Ability as a Fighter and Historical Significance. I like your criteria.

Out of Curiosity what is your top 20 ATG Heavyweight List looking like nowadays?

 

Adam did try to find new fights and he did research Jeffries European tour he was in contact with ME!

You know a lot about it! You said Jeffries ko'd Ed Dunkhorst in the UK! Dunkhorst never even made the trip!
It was Jack Jeffries his brother who took his name over here!Sometimes calling himself Ed Dunkhorst and sometimes Jack Dunkhorst

Once again I repeat, Jeffries had no FIGHTS in the UK, he had a series of exhibitions!
They lasted from August 1899 until September of that year.His first exhibition was with his brother on August the 4th in London at the Royal Aquarium it was over 4 rds.Apart from Jack Jeffries ,Jeffries boxed George Chrisp and Jack Scales nightly and sometimes Arthur Morris. I should charge you for this information but as it wont sink in and you'll repeat the same old lies at a later date I won't! I completely understand the concept of a lineal champion and I also understand that white bigots like yourself introduced Jeffries into the ring as the White heavyweight Champion Of The World when he fought Johnson,because they could not bear the thought of a black man being the best man in the world!"

 

I commutated with Adam; he stated he was not doing much research in this area and does not expect to find new information. Jeffries had several knockouts in Europe. Whether they were exhibitions or not, or fights with Joe local types to make money is not the point. Many of the names are still unknown.

Not only is your obsession here a radical, but you also have no concept of the lineal championship. Once again, many of the times still considered Jeffries champion upon his return as he never lost this title in the ring.
Just raise your fist a little higher so we can see it. Everyone knows you love to degrade accomplished white heavyweights such as Corbett, Jeffries, Marciano, and the Klitschko brothers. It has been your modus operandi for years. As for the racists of the time in the USA, they were mostly UK ancestry. Your kin, not mine.

My #1 and #2 heavies are Ali and Holmes, both African Americans who said some controversial things on race, and this was my opinion long before you started playing the race card, and old tactic of your when I correct you too often.

Also, I never said Jeffries KO'd Dunkhorst in the UK, I only said they sparred once and he did it.

What's the point in correct a badly researched guy with an agenda, and bad memory? Outside of correction errors for the readers, you are beginning to bore me. Now act your age, and see if you can skip replying back so I won't have to correct the several things I pointed out that you initially denied about the so called fight of the century.

 

I do believe Dunkhorst was in camp with Jeffries, and I think Jeffries taught him the crouch, which Ed did use. I'd need to check the exact details.