Who rates higher all time Jeffries or Dempsey?

Please do.

 

Yes. Adding Johnson and McVea would improve his standing, just like adding Wills, Greb, Godfrey, and Renault would improve Dempsey's standing.

But I think the issue is given who the two men actually fought, which one rates higher.

We disagree I think.

 

Name one ko Jeffries had in Europe?You don't even know where he boxed here!

 

Yes we do but I can see why others might pick Jeffries. I just think Dempsey was a greater fighter.

 

Not on his tour of the Uk he wasn't.That is a certainty!

 

Oh, the joke might have been obscure. You are not a "bit slow" to use your description. I miss a lot of tongue in cheek remarks.

"the relevance of Firpo losing his third fight"

He was KO'd in one round by a 167 lb. man. It is valid to point out Firpo was inexperienced. But if you want, we can substitute Weinert at 184 lbs.

"Morris losing to Flynn in 1911"

Morris was 27 and coming off KO's of Marvin Hart and Mike Shreck. Flynn was not as large as Dempsey. Morris would later prove better than an aging Flynn, but the 27 year old Morris of 1911 might well have been better than the 34 year old Morris Dempsey beat in 1918, when Morris was in decline and falling out of contender status.

"Bearcat McMahon"

His height on fightsrec is given as 5' 11". His weight for Willard at 175. McMahon's weight is given as 179 for Levinsky on 2/1914 and 175 for Jack Dillon on 6/1915. He weight is sometimes given as high for a fight as 187. But this top weight still leaves him a guy Dempsey's weight but shorter.

"Gunboat Smith"

His weight is listed on fightsrec as 180 lbs., and given quite a few other weights given, this seems about right. Among other fights, Smith is listed as 179 for Levinsky on 1/27/1915. 174 for Norfolk on 8/20/1917. 179 for Miske on 7/12/1918. 178 for Dempsey on 12/30/1918. Smith has about 20 weights given for fights, and none are over 185.

My point is that I don't see carrying the size argument too far, because these big guys lost not only to Dempsey, but to men smaller than Dempsey. Or to cut to the chase, they weren't really so good that for me they trump men like Fitz, Corbett, and Sharkey.

 

My take would be very similar to Janitor's on his evaluation post.

 

Not for the first time.

 

If someone uses plaster of Paris they would crush there own hand bones. Ridiculous assumption. I dont believe either story. Ridiculous

 

An experiment was made to see if it worked,it came about because of an article about the Dempsey v Willard fight in which Dempsey's estranged and feuding manager Jack Kearns alleged he dusted Dempsey's hands with plaster of Paris before the fight. First of all Jimmy Deforest wrapped Dempsey's hands for that fight in the presence of Nat Fleischer,secondly Boxing Illustrated tried to load Cleveland Williams handwraps with the same stuff and then,after a suitable interval had him hit the heavy bag.The material just disintegrated to dust. When Bob Fitzsimmons fought Jeffries the second time Fitz came into the ring with just his hand wraps on [as did Dempsey].Jeffries walked over to him and," carefully and thoroughly inspected his hands, nodding that he was satisfied . "Source Adam Pollack," James j Jeffries".People do spout some rubbish!

 

I think not having film helps Jeffries.

Jim Corbett hadn't won a fight in six years - and hadn't fought a sanctioned bout in two years - when he went 23 rounds and lost to Jeffries. And Corbett hadn't fought in three years and was 36 years old when he lost the return match.

Bob Fitzsimmons hadn't had a sanctioned fight in two years leading up to BOTH of his fights with Jeffries and he was nearly 40 for the rematch.

Peter Jackson was 37 years old and hadn't won a sanctioned fight IN SIX YEARS when he lost to Jeffries.

And he drew with Joe Choynski, who he outweighed by 50 pounds.

Those are arguably his six most celebrated performances.

If his career was on film and dissected like today's fighters are, and people counted the rounds he lost, and the rounds where he did nothing, and the rounds where he missed badly, only to KO an undersized and often very old name guy after falling way behind, Jeffries would be an afterthought.

Dempsey by a mile. Jeffries isn't even in the frame.

 

LaBlahe , KO 1 in Paris. It does not take me long to show you new fact, however changing your opinion on this topic is somewhat difficult, even with the facts.

It is reported that Jeffries took on all comers in Scotland and Ireland. Not sure if you count Ireland as part of Europe, I do not.

Most of the men beaten in Europe are not known. There is also good evidence that Jeffries beat many men in the USA prior to Fitzsimmons that do not show up in verified news reported fights.

Just because you can't read their names on the web, does not mean it didn't happen.

 

By a mile, not even close? That's what I call being unreasonable. You might want to lower that bar just a bit

Which man did Jeffries lose to under 200 pounds? Same question to Dempsey.

How often was Jeffries floored while active? Same question to Dempsey.

Why do most historians, scratch that that almost living during their activity all think Jeffries beat better fighters?

Who do you think beat better fighters? ( An opinion you can answer )

Who beat better African American fighters?

What did Dempsey himself say about a potential match up?

 

Dubblechin,

On Dempsey's name title opponents. The facts:

Jess Willard was 37 and had not fought in 3 years. Unlike Fitzsimmons he did not come back to look good again. He looked slow, and was open to hit. There is a loaded glove question here, likely not but you never know as Dempsey didn't ever do this type of damage before or after. Dempsey runs out of the ring in round one. Very odd. The fight was not stopped. Was he hiding something?

Gene Tunney. Tunney won 19 of 20 rounds, and floored Dempsey. Had the match been 15 rounds or longer, he stops the Mauler, who at the end of one fight could not even see Tunney to congratulate him. Dempsey in shape and not that old with tune up fights. Tunney offered a 3rd fight, Dempsey knew better.

Jack Sharkey, up 5 or 6 rounds on any fair score cards Dempsey went low then KO'd Sharkey while asking the ref to do his job. It would be a NO contest today. Dempsey landed a series of low blows in round seven. Sharkey turned to the referee to protest, and Dempsey knocked him out with a left hook to the chin. Being down on points, and rocked, you can not call this a clean victory.

Billy Mikse. 1920. Miske fought this bout while suffering from Bright's Disease and died from in at age 29. You can not give much credit here for the win as the man was sick Prior to becoming ill, Miske Drew with Dempsey in 1918. According to George Blair, the St. Paul Pioneer-Press reported Miske to be the winner.

Carpentier: In the second round, Carpentier broke his right thumb in two places and suffered a slight wrist strain which is when Dempsey took over. Prior to that film shows Carpentier landing and he did stun him, at under 170 pounds. A good win, but not one that really makes Dempsey look good if you watch the films and factor in the injury.

Bill Brennan - Dempsey was in some trouble and behind. He scored a come from behind KO in round 12, but vs a man of this class it doesn't make him look good. Brennan didn't really stop anyone decent and was just a fair boxer.

Firpo - Crude, but floored Dempsey twice and had him out of the ring for an unknown amount of time, Dempsey was assisted back into the ring, a violation of the rules which could have resulted in a DQ, but technical not his fault.

Gibbons - Dempsey lacked sharpness and power while Gibbons, who managed to cut Dempsey’s eye in round two, slapped on repeated clinches and generally tried to neutralize the champion or ran. A boring fight.

Summary, lots of fouls, and questionable wins. Some other wins happened when the other guy was injured. I have films, facts and reports to back ALL of the above up.

There you have it and I'm not even talking about his 4 other losses or 8 other draws in non-title defenses. If I were to count the amount of times Dempsey was down, he might pass Floyd Patterson's total of 18. Well maybe not but close. Double digits for sure. I'd have to research to get the full total.

 

You're blatantly moving the goalposts. Jeffries fought two guys above 200 lbs. One was a bum and the other kicked his ass. Do you really think old Fitz and old Corbett are better than the guys Dempsey beat? Those are Jeffries' best wins. Dempsey clearly beat better contenders. Why does it matter who beat better African American fighters?

Dempsey never saw a single Jeffries fight and was 9 years old the last time Jeffries fought before retiring.