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Canelo-Golovkin II - Big Drama Show?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Jun 14, 2018.

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Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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Cafe said: ↑

IDK man, an attribute like ring IQ should be looked on a larger sample than a singular fight between each other. I've seen Canelo fight really dumb before, especially against boxers.
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I agree - it doesn't boil down to a single fight. But given I had them pretty much on even terms in my mind, I think - for now at least, I'm inclined to give the edge here to Canelo.

As I see it, in terms of game plan and strategy along with EXECUTION - I think Canelo had a solid strategy that he intelligently adhered to throughout. I honestly can't say the same for Gennady. Now in fairness, maybe it's not a matter of ring IQ, and more a matter of GGG not being as capable or versatile as I previously believed. Or maybe it's fairer to say, "no longer" as capable or versatile. All the same, I thought Canelo used ideal tactics for his fighting style against G. I don't think the reverse was true at all, and I think Gennady was mentally not at his best. Canelo certainly had something to do with that, but I still maintain Golovkin wasn't utilizing enough tools from his toolbox.

Rumsfeld, Jun 15, 2018

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greenhornet Boxing Addict Full Member

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Cableaddict said: ↑

The only drama is whether they will screw Golovkin again, or let him win in order to set up the lucrative trilogy.

This is a fight that doesn't even need to happen.
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barring a quick ko, either guy winning probably sets up a trilogy.

greenhornet, Jun 15, 2018

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Angler Andrew Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Rumsfeld said: ↑

I agree - it doesn't boil down to a single fight. But given I had them pretty much on even terms in my mind, I think - for now at least, I'm inclined to give the edge here to Canelo.

As I see it, in terms of game plan and strategy along with EXECUTION - I think Canelo had a solid strategy that he intelligently adhered to throughout. I honestly can't say the same for Gennady. Now in fairness, maybe it's not a matter of ring IQ, and more a matter of GGG not being as capable or versatile as I previously believed. Or maybe it's fairer to say, "no longer" as capable or versatile. All the same, I thought Canelo used ideal tactics for his fighting style against G. I don't think the reverse was true at all, and I think Gennady was mentally not at his best. Canelo certainly had something to do with that, but I still maintain Golovkin wasn't utilizing enough tools from his toolbox.
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Veteran of 400 fights there’s nothing Golovkin hasn’t seen or can adjust to,Precise puncher did a vid on the Vanes fight all two rounds of it and it was his opinion that Golovkin was setting him up for the uppercut as Vanes was ducking down after the jab,one,two and then the first time he showed him the uppercut he’d already ducked into it.

Ok my opinion at the time and now is that with Abel constantly telling him not to let Canelo have the last thirty secs of each round I just think Golovkin was guilty of rushing his work instead of going through his usual process,this explains the head hunting,lack of body shots and just a more erratic display than usual.
Course we should give Canelo props for this but I’m sure this time we shall see a more grounded Golovkin as I’m sure there were some nerves from him for three rounds.

Also if he can’t cut him off then he’d be better off keeping him in the middle of the ring.

Angler Andrew, Jun 15, 2018

#48

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Dreamking Active Member Full Member

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I've noticed GGG has trouble landing straight right hands. He had the same issue against Stevens he had to use the uppercut and left hook to get him out of there. Abel needs to work GGG on setting up the big straight right. If he can't I foresee the rematch going similar to the 1st fight but with Canelo landing more.

Dreamking, Jun 15, 2018

#49

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African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council banned Full Member

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shadow111 said: ↑

Nice video Rumsfeld. I'm glad the rematch is happening too. I know you posted your scorecard a while back. I still don't know how you give Golovkin 8 rounds in a row from rounds 4-11. You brought up the Byrd card several times in the video as being so terrible, but at the same time you recognized that many of the rounds were close but that Golovkin was doing the better work.

My question to you is, in general : do you typically score rounds for the guy who lands the better punches or the guy who lands the most punches? Because it seems to me that in most of those rounds you scored for Golovkin, Canelo was in fact doing the better work, whereas it was Golovkin that was doing the "more" work. So if you're going to say you thought Golovkin was doing the better work in rounds 4-11, then I guess my question is what made what Golovkin was doing in those rounds "better"? He was coming forward, he was throwing more punches, but he was also getting tagged with big punches. Yeah he landed a few more punches, granted, but it wasn't better, it was just that he was moving his arms more, coming forward more, landing more partial / glancing stuff. Not landing "better" than Canelo.

You recognized that Canelo was the boxer that showcased the better techincal prowess. If Golovkin won all those middle rounds, it seems to me that it was because he was out working Canelo, throwing more punches, landing a few more jabs maybe, rather than doing the better work. The better work would be the fighter who lands the cleaner more effective punches.

To be clear, I'm not defending the Byrd card in any way shape or form, it was too wide in my view, but as somebody who had Canelo winning 8-4 / 7-5, I don't see the Byrd card as that crazy IF you score rounds to the fighter that lands the best overall punches in a round as opposed to the fighter who may get in a few more punches landed over the course of the round. In those middle rounds, it was classic quantity vs quality was it not? Quality is "better" than quantity. Quantity's only better if the quality is about the same, which it wasn't in most of those middle rounds. (the only round really that Golovkin's quality and quantity really seemed to out-do Canelo was round 7, and Byrd recognized that and gave the round to Golovkin)

If you judge the quality of the work landed in a round, and don't just give it to the guy walking forward and throwing more punches, you could theoretically give Canelo many of those middle rounds. (particularly 6, 8, 9, and certainly 10 & 11 which many people gave to Canelo) You had Golovkin winning 8 - 4 and gave Golovkin 8 rounds in a row. Well OK, that's your call, but I don't see how Golovkin landed the better punches in most of those rounds or did the better work. If he won those rounds, it was because he did more work, not the better work. Do you agree with that?

To give Golovkin 8 rounds in a row like you did, you are pretty much ignoring the quality of Canelo's uppercuts in rounds 6 and 8, which were better than anything Golovkin landed in those rounds, and frankly better than any punch Golovkin landed in the entire fight. Byrd didn't ignore those punches, she saw how vicious those punches landed and concluded that Canelo deserved to win that round because nothing Golovkin did in those rounds could match that.

A sensational uppercut like that can in fact offset several ineffective jabs or right hands that the opponent slips with upper body movement but technically is considered a hit.

I think now that the rematch is happening, it would be a good idea if we can put Byrd's card in the proper perspective, to save ourself from the kind of outrage that could result if the rematch goes to a decision lol. If you recognize full that pretty much all the rounds were close, what is stopping you from considering rounds 6, 8 9, etc from being toss-up rounds?

I mean if you prioritize aggression and volume, then OK give Golovkin rounds 7,8 and 9. But rounds 4 and 5, those were not like 7 8 and 9 where Golovkin was outworking Canelo. I mean in Round 5, Canelo was outlanding Golovkin over the first 2 minutes. If you give Golovkin the round, OK ( I did) for the right hand and the chasing Canelo in the final minute and landing a few OK, but if you really watch that round it was pretty much a toss-up. So was round 4, you recognized that Golovkin started slow. Well Round 4 was still part of that slow start. Canelo that round went to the ropes, but unlike the 5th, in the 4th he wasn't caught with anything while on the ropes. Golovkin was starting to close the distance in the 4th and the body language started to change, but he still couldn't land on Canelo, so I gave that round to Canelo.

Not to go on and on about this, but we are 3 months away from the rematch OK. So lets get excited about this great rematch. But when I watch your video, you continue to harp on the Byrd card like it was just so completely out there. But yet in many of those middle rounds, Canelo was landing the better punches. For you to say the Byrd card is crazy, you have to literally ignore and discount who was landing the better more impactful punches round after round.

If you instinctively score rounds to the aggressor or the fighter who throws more punches, regardless of how well they land, then I can see how you'd score some of those middle rounds to Golovkin, but you have to pay attention to who landed the better punches. Even in round 7, for Trella to give Canelo the round, well he was clearly outworked and I thought Golovkin deserved to win the rounds, but Canelo still arguably landed the best 2 or 3 punches of the round. The sequence with 2 minutes left in the round with the counter punches, the uppercut towards the end of the round.

That's a round that Golovkin should have won, but still I wouldn't say he did the better work. Just the more sustained work. I mean that was Golovkin's best 90 seconds of the fight in the middle of that 7th round. But outside of those 90 seconds, Canelo was doing the better work.

So we have to keep things in perspective with the Byrd card. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with it and mentioning it, but lets not act like you couldn't give rounds 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 to Canelo. You could give those rounds to him, if you score fights based on who landed the btter overall punches, and how had the better defense. The only round where Canelo's defense wa really lacking in the entire fight was round 7, which was why I gave it to Golovkin. It wasn't just the volume from G in those middle 90 seconds, it was how clean Golovkin's punches landed. Still Trella wasn't swayed by those, and probably Trella gave Canelo the 7th because he recognized how close the 6th was and felt like it would be wrong to give Golovkin two rounds in a row with Canelo landed big uppercuts.

All that said, may the best man win in September, but I think we need to recognize that judging boxing is subjective, and if you can admit that the rounds were close, even if you don't think they were toss-ups, it shouldn't be that crazy if one of the judges gives several close rounds to the guy landing the better punches. (regardless of aggression or volume) I think too often judges are swayed by aggression and volume when they should be more focused on punch quality and impact, i.e. the best punches in the round, the boxer who is slipping punches, etc.
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I agree with all your points. I could not have put it better myself. I expect improved conditioning from Canelo to prove decisive in the rematch and I am predicting a Canelo stoppage win over GGG. This reminds me very much of Azumah Nelson vs Jeff French.

African Cobra, Jun 16, 2018

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spinner Active Member banned Full Member

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Cableaddict said: ↑

The only drama is whether they will screw Golovkin again, or let him win in order to set up the lucrative trilogy.

This is a fight that doesn't even need to happen.
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GGG won the fight but got screwed out of a rightful victory. Let's hope that we ill again have another great fight but that this time there will be no controversy over banned substances or judging errors.

spinner, Jun 16, 2018

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Rumsfeld said: ↑

Will the rematch provide a big drama show? What does everyone think?

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good analysis of the fight & commentary ~ am looking forward to the rematch

spinner, Jun 16, 2018

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Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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Olu G. Rotimi said: ↑

I agree with all your points. I could not have put it better myself. I expect improved conditioning from Canelo to prove decisive in the rematch and I am predicting a Canelo stoppage win over GGG. This reminds me very much of Azumah Nelson vs Jeff French.
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Well at least you won't be 0-2 with your predictions if he does

Olu G. Rotimi said: ↑

Canelo will stop GGG and make him quit. Mexicans don't mess around.
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Serge, Jun 16, 2018

#53
Donkey Ohtay Member Full Member

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Had the first fight a draw with Golovkin being more aggressive yet inaccurate, whereas Canelo was only effective in short bursts. I think Golovkin will be cautious again, Canelo will pace himself a little better and land more punches than in the first fight. Canelo UD.

Donkey Ohtay, Jun 17, 2018

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Scar VIP Member

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ATG22 said: ↑

I guess owning the highest KO% in middleweight championship history is trash. Solid theory.
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Yet he was a 1/100 favorite with the least being 1/20 against 90% of these carefully selected guys. If you started following the sport shortly after Golovkin became popular, then those of us that have been here for a decade know how hypejobs are carefully created. There's a reason why his "historic" KO power ceased to exist when he finally fought an A class fighter.

Scar, Jun 17, 2018

#55

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IsaL said: ↑

You say you don't see Canelo doing anything else? He just needs to work on his stamina and will be able to completely outbox GGG. When Canelo's energy was up he outboxed GGG, when he slowed down he allowed GGG to score points with the jab.
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No more mexican beef for Clenelo

BCS8, Jun 17, 2018

#56

iii Boxing Addict Full Member

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IsaL said: ↑

Good video as always @Rumsfeld

I will say that if GGG decides to open up earlier in the fight he will be risking getting countered more frequently in first rounds when Canelo is at his strongest, sharpest, and fastest.

Based on the last fight, I observed that it wasn't until Canelo slowed down that Golovkin was able to start putting in good work.

As far as room for improvement I feel that Canelo's stamina will be better as he and his team have acknowledged that it was a problem in the first fight.

If Canelo does in fact works on his stamina, and Golovkin does in fact take more risks earlier on than in the first fight, I can see Golovkin getting caught by Canelo's fast explosive counters more frequently than in the first three rounds of the first fight.

IMO Golovkin fought very hard and was as relentless as he could be in their first fight, and he will have to match that in the rematch and dig deeper and fight that way and possibly harder in the rematch if Canelo has indeed focused on his stamina which I believe he did.

Great fight and like you said, may the best man get the W.
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All good...but you never addressed Rummys comments about the totally abysmal judging by your Queen Byrd ? Nonce

iii, Jun 17, 2018

#57
Sugar 88 Woke Moralist-In-Chief

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shadow111 said: ↑

Yeah I would be happy with a Trilogy and a quick turnaround for a 3rd fight in December if the rematch produces a remotely close decision. (Last month DLH said he plans on Canelo fighting December as well since he missed his usual May date and he's always fought at least twice a year)

I got to be honest, I understand the outrage over the Byrd card when it was announced. But I think at this point the complaining about it is just getting redundant. Like Rumsfeld's video was solid, he made many good points, and frankly he recognizes stuff that many Golovkin fans like to ignore, but then I think on 3 separate times he mentioned the Byrd card lol. It's like OK we get it, giving Canelo 10 rounds is a bit of a stretch. But when it comes to discussing the Byrd card I feel like I'm back in high school trying to talk to the popular preppy kids lol.

It's perfectly reasonable to have Canelo winning the fight by several rounds, if you value quality punching Golovkin was not in Canelo's league. He just wasn't. Whether that's giving Canell 7, 8, 9 rounds, even a totally crazy 10 rounds, IS DEBATABLE. It depends how much value value aggression vs quality clean impactful effective punching. Maybe Golovkin will be able to close that gap in the rematch with a different strategy, but I have my doubts.

I do think Golovkin is in better shape this year than he was last year. He didn't look healthy last September when he walked into the ring. he looked drained, and vs Vanes Golovkin looked healthier. So I do think Golovkin may be better this time around, but I also think Canelo will be a better verison of himself as well.

I think both fighters will come into the rematch looking better than last year, and I do expect another back and forth affair. Probably Golovkin will start better and maybe will win some of the early rounds, but I think what could happen is Golovkin may feel like he's doing better early on and then get over confident and get caught with something, and Canelo could take over in the middle rounds.
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What I don't think most Canelo fans are willing to admit - despite many claiming the fight could of gone either way - is that on Byrds card it was impossible for Golovkin to win. To have him losing 10 rounds suggests that nothing he could of done other than score multiple knockdowns would have seen her give him the points.

If Canelo fans admitted her card showed she was biased or incompetent and that Golovkin didn't really have a chance of winning on her scoresheet then it'd be a lost easier to put her to bed as a blind anomaly.

Sugar 88, Jun 17, 2018

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Cableaddict Boxing Junkie Full Member

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greenhornet said: ↑

barring a quick ko, either guy winning probably sets up a trilogy.
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True.

They both make yet more millions, and they both get to further avoid Charlo and Derevyanchenko.

Cableaddict, Jun 17, 2018

#59
Bustajay Feel the Steel/Balls Deep Full Member

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Rumsfeld said: ↑

You made a good post. You would have to concede, however, that an 8-4 scorecard in favor of Canelo represents a significant minority view point. Not there is anything inherently wrong with holding the minority view. For instance, I had Ward beating Kovalev in their first bout. So holding the minority view doesn't disqualify your view, but honestly, I think you're wrong about this. The Byrd score was outrageous, and there was a reason I harped on THAT scorecard, and not the draw verdict in this episode

The scorecard I posted was from my original viewing, the night of the fight. I will say, however, that the more episodes I have done on this bout (and I've done quite a few), the greater my appreciation has become of some of the really good work Canelo was doing. But I knew he was doing a lot of good work at the time. I still never got the impression he was ever being as effective after round 3 - his best work came in those first 3 rounds (and that strong stretch in round 12).

Looking forward to seeing how the rematch pans out, and I do have a good feeling that it might just produce a big drama show.

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Can’t wait for the rematch
I had it 115/113 for GGG and fully expect another close fight
GGG gave away the first 3 rounds as if he were frozen in his stance
Neither guy can score a KO in my
View as both are hard warriors
May the best man win

Bustajay, Jun 17, 2018

#60

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