Who rates higher all time Jeffries or Dempsey?

"neither was the outstanding contender"

I don't understand what your thrust is. I think Vitali did not fight that many top men, but Wlad is really not that vulnerable on this point, unless you hold Vitali against him. Here is the top contenders other than Wlad during his reign as per The Ring's annual rankings. * Wlad defeated

2005--Chris Byrd*
2006--Oleg Maskaev
2007--Samuel Peter*
2008--Vitali, Ruslan Chagaev*
2009--Vitali, Alexander Povetkin*
2010--Vitali, David Haye*
2011--Vitali, Alexander Povetkin*
2012--Alexander Povetkin*, David Haye*, Kubrat Pulev*
2013--Kubrat Pulev*, Alexander Povetkin*
2014--Alexander Povetkin*

So Wlad missed Maskaev and Vitali,

but fought Byrd, Peter, Chagaev, Povetkin, Haye, and Pulev of the top contenders

that is pretty good, certainly better than Dempsey's record. I would say it really boils down to missing Vitali.

 

This is apparently okay as long as someone releases a supposed poll saying it is okay.

 

With all this dispute about Greb, I wondered how Greb & Dempsey did against common opponents. Greb fought so many it is possible I missed somebody, but here is what I came out with from boxrec. Greb and Dempsey had nine common opponents--

Terry Keller
Harry Greb-----W 10, W 15
Jack Dempsey--W 10, W10, KO 5

Tommy Gibbons
Harry Greb-----L 10, L 10, W 10, W 15
Jack Dempsey--W 15

Billy Miske
Harry Greb-----D 6, W 10, W 10
Jack Dempsey--D 10, W 6, KO 3

Battling Levinsky
Harry Greb-----W 10, W 6, W 10, W 12, W 6, W 10
Jack Dempsey--KO 3

Willie Meehan
Harry Greb-----W 6, W 10
Jack Dempsey--L 4, W 4, D 4, D 4, L 4

Gunboat Smith
Harry Greb-----W 6, KO 1
Jack Dempsey--W 4, KO 2

Bill Brennan
Harry Greb-----W 10, W 10, W 15, W 10
Jack Dempsey--KO 6, KO 12

Homer Smith
Harry Greb-----KO 5
Jack Dempsey--KO 1

Gene Tunney
Harry Greb-----W 15, L 15, L 15, D 10, L 10
Jack Dempsey--L 10, L 10

Overall records

Greb went 22-5-2 with these nine men, with 2 KO's
Greb defeated all nine at least once. He lost to 2, and drew with 2

Dempsey went 14-4-3 with these nine, with 8 KO's
Dempsey defeated eight of the nine. He lost to 2, and drew with 2

My observation--what really hurts Greb is the ND rule, as he didn't get credit except in the newspapers for a lot of these wins. The ND rule clouds this era in boxing.

Dempsey has the advantage that his KO's win ND fights,

but his KO record is not that overpowering with 8 in 21 fights. He stopped six of these nine men, but five go the distance, and five manage to last ten full rounds or more.

 

Jess Willard did it. In the era before formal rankings by sanctioning bodies it could be done. The NY state athletic commission banned Dempsey from fighting in NY for not fighting Wills. When no responsible promoter came forward to promote the bout it was ended. Wills wasn't the top contender according to any formal sanctioning body, he was the top contender according to reputation. Rankings didn't start until February of 1925. I'm not sure when they became concrete with mandatory challengers.

 

Jeffries ducked Denver Ed Martin, Jack Johnson, and Sam Mcvey.

 

After he had lost the title. Jeffries had no choice but to fight Johnson if he wanted the title back so it doesn't count.

Mcvey was a contender for the title. One of the Johnson-Mcvey fights was to determine who would fight Jeffries. Jeffries ducked both.

One of those wins was against a green Martin. Martin beat Armstrong 2x after that and held wins over Hank Griffin, Sandy Ferguson, and Frank Childs. Jeffries instead fought only once in 1902 (against old/inactive Fitz) and once in 1903 against old/inactive Corbett. Jeffries fought Bob Armstrong in 1898, Denver Ed Martin wasn't even pro.

Denver Ed Martin beat Hank Griffin, Jack Johnson beat Denver Ed Martin. Are you arguing that Jeffries didn't have to fight Johnson because Griffin beat Johnson?

Jackson was the best black heavyweight of the Sullivan era. That doesn't boost Jeffries' legacy. It detracts from it.

Unlike Jeffries, Dempsey was forbidden from fighting black fighters. Jeffries fought in the pre-Johnson era so there's no excuse for not fighting black fighters. His entire stretch of title defenses could have been against black guys. Dempsey on the other hand fought in the immediate post-Jack Johnson era where nobody wanted a black champion even more than before Johnson.

 

There is no doubt whatsoever that Jeffries was not prepared to risk his title against a black challenger.He was vociferously blunt about this there are literally dozens of verified quotes from him expressly saying so.
Jeffries was offered a $20,000 guarantee to defend his tile against the then coloured champion Denver Ed Martin,when McVey kod Martin the same promoter tried to match Jeffries with McVey who was felt to be a physical match for him.Jeffries would not entertain either match.Neither would he give even a moments thought to defending against Johnson when he kod McVey.
It is quite true to state Jeffries did not shy away from black fighters,but only until he won the title then he many ,many times stated he would not defend against one under any circumstances. Beating up a consumptive alcoholic 37 years old Peter Jackson is no badge of honour in my book .Tom Sharkey who disliked blacks on principle and never again fought one after being stopped by one early in his career said he would have been ashamed to fight Jackson because he was a physical wreck.Jeffries himself said Jackson was ,"just a shell".
To once again address the original question I don't think there is much in either's reign to suggest one was clearly the others superior,though I think Dempsey the greater fighter.

 

Jackson really was more when Sullivan held the title but was way past it. There's little argument that Jackson was for a time, the best heavyweight in the world.

Godfrey was probably more the best black heavyweight of Sullivan's prime and dominance.

 

Sullivan ducked Jackson ,but he was then in decline and some slack can be cut him ,imo.
Corbett ducking Jackson is inexcusable imo.

 

The way I see it now, Sullivan was a great champion, but held the title for years past when he should have, and had long been in decline. Though he does deserve critisism for starting the color line bull****, and refusing to fight Godfrey.

I think if it was fair Jackson probably would have been champion sometime between Sullivan and Corbett. He arguably was since he beat Slavin who I think was recognised by some during Sullivan's retirement (though seemingly not that widely atleast in America). I think had he rematched Corbett after he beat Sullivan, Corbett would have won at that point.

It's crazy that Sullivan, Corbett and Fitzsimmons all retired, and came back to lose their belt. I think it was a bit broken back then, in once you were the champ you had little incentive to defend your title, especially against the best opposition

 

I've never said Dempsey shouldn't have defended against Wills.Two wrongs do not------etc

 

Perhaps there was a poll advising Corbett not to fight Jackson.