Prime Foreman vs prime Mike Tyson who wins?

Most of this is very obvious.

If 70's George in his full incarnation was transported forward he wouldn't need patience to beat that lot, even Holyfield imo.

The true reasons for him coming back are a guess but i don't think it was miles removed from the actual reasons he gave.

 

Dude now youre saying being hurt very briefly is the same as being on your ass or staggering around the ring?

Losing the first 1 or 2 rounds is the same as trailing on the scorecards?

Lmao!

I never said lyle was ahead, i said foreman got off the floor after being dropped not once, but twice. That is insane will power and the heart of a true champion. Of course youd know that if you ever competed in an actual sport and would appreciate it. That alone tells me even 70'a foreman wouldnt just crumble as soon as he was hurt by tyson, especially because the lyle fight happened AFTER he lost to ali and his confidence was at a low point.

And he was waaay behind on the cards against michael moore and won by ko. Again, these are both things tyson never did, he was never thoroughly outboxed or stumbling like a drunk and dug deep to find a way to win.

 

I could say the same about tyson dropping foreman. Bad style matchup, foreman has the advantage in height, reach, strength, chin, power, and heart. Massive hooks and uppercuts vs short come forward short armed guy who relies on getting in and out with fast combinations. I think tyson wins the first round with his speed and defense, then he gets nailed by something big and its downhill from there.

 

The question here should also be ragarding the relevance of the Lyle fight.
If you judge George hardly by the Lyle fight, you must at least admit that he was much much easier to hurt by hard single blows here than Tyson was.
But I´m not sure how much the layoff took out of George. In the same manner it doesn´t make much sense to judge Tyson from the Douglas fight for not beeing agressive.

 

George Foreman did mature mentally. It's like he grew up in a way.

 

The difference is that Tyson beat fighters like Douglas, tall rangy stick and move fighters. Douglas didn't really do anything that say Tucker, Thomas or Spinks couldn't have done in theory. In fact, everyone was expecting Spinks to fight Tyson exactly the same way Douglas did.

With Foreman, the reason so much emphasis is put on the Lyle fight is because it is the only example we have of a 70s Foreman taking on a solid heavyweight puncher who had a chance to land cleanly and consistently on him. Frazier, in theory, hit hard enough to hurt Foreman as I don't believe Foreman could have just plowed through Frazier's left hooks all night. Eventually he'd have went down. But Frazier wasn't able to land consistently.

Now if Foreman had wars with say Mac Foster and Earnie Shavers where he was repeatedly decked but never went down, then the Lyle fight could be looked at as an anomaly.

 

No im not saying that. im saying being staggered is the same as a flash KD.
Surviving A knockdown is not necessarily proof of anything. A ref can call a slip a knockdown. Mike Tyson slipped vs Alex Stewart and knocked him out a minute later. 5/10 refs might have called that a KD.
A much better way to word your argument might be to say Tyson never came back from ring as badly hurt as Foreman was vs Lyle.
Which I would counter by saying "tyson showed a far greater ability to absorb punishment before going down in the first place"

Foremans comeback vs moorer was a different Foreman so that doesn't factor into THIS thread. If you wanna argue post prison tyson had much less heart than old Foreman I absolutely agree. I'm saying that Tyson pre prison had no shortage of heart. Heart=desire to fight, desire to win.


Tysons style made it almost impossible to come from behind. Coming at his opponent with full force from the beginning was his trademark, why would he be any more successful inround 10 thanround 1 unless he has been winning every round and his opponent is worn out.
Which is why the guys that beat tyson had to be able to not just weather the early storm but meet it with full force from the beginning.



And Tyson STILL produced an uppercut in the 8th that would have left most HWs including Michael Moorer out cold

 

Disagree. Young Foremans technique and fundamentals were just atrocious. If he had to fight young George in 1991
Holyfield roids Up to 217 or even more a couple of years earlier than he did in real life, beats him to the punch and counters his counter all night.
When Holyfield respects a guys power his defense can be quite tight like it was vs Tyson with very few punches really landing perfectly.
Foreman wouldnt block holYfields punches and his own would be far too ponderous for the quick evander.
Old George used his jab and str8 right in a way that allowed him to set up a sweeping shot. Young George didn't set up thesweeping punches and Holy would see them coming and just step inside them and maybe headbutt him.
Holyfields arms might hurt the next-day and he might have some scares but
Holyfields speed technique was too superior and the strength and conditioning the peds he took allowed him to use it effectively against other sports science enhanced Giants like Bowe(trained by mackie shilstone and Mr Olympia Lee Haney at different points in his career) and Lennox Lewis who matched if not exceeded young George in strength and power.

Now if young George had Modern trainers and not the buffoons who made him dehydrate before his fights and by Foremans own admission told him " I won't have to teach you anything, nobody can take your power"
Then yeah holyfields chances were slim.

But the way it went in real life young George was a freak of nature who blew through 2 guys who were great but we're Taylor made for him but was the figured out and once the cat was out of the bag regarding some of his glaringweaknesses, he didn't adapt, he retired.

Don't get meeting I love george as a commentator and have tremendous respect for him as a person and both careers together probably add up to a top 10 HW legacy but his first career amounted to 2 big wins due to freakish talent which were followed by a complete cluster**** from 74 forward

 

You've derailed your own argument a teeny bit here. Tyson had one punch power and he didn't tend to gas badly either.

Why would a guy with one punch power and decent stamina not be able to come from behind? He wasn't far from it vs Douglas admittedly.

It's a curious question that's for sure.

You made good points as well tho.

Basically if Tyson couldn't get you out of there early he probably wasn't going to get you out of there at all. On top of this if you yourself got on top of Tyson early he wasn't going to turn it around.

For all the devastation of Tyson's A game he simply had no B. Get past the A (and it took some doing mind you!) and it was pretty much a clear run. He didn't overly adapt or find new angles.

Of course you had to be one heckuva fighter to get past A.

 

Except foreman didnt suffer "flash knockdowns" he was dropped like a sack of potatos and had wobbly legs. He took big overhand rights flush and it rocked him.

You either havent seen the lyle fight or youre attempting to downplay foremans endurance and courage. Getting wobbled by one big punch is NOT the same as stumbling around drunk or needing to get up from a hard knockdown. Which again tells me you definitely havent been in any serious fights and/or dont watch enough to know the difference.

Tysons style of going full force from the beginning and then tiring out is exactly why he'll have a disadvantage against foreman. Im not ruling out the possibility of an early stoppage if he manages to hurt foreman bad and follows up with just the right combo. But if he doesnt get him out of there, hes NOT going to win. And i see an overly aggressive, short swarmer like tyson inevitably running into something big if he presses the issue too much. I dont like his odds and if i were his trainer i wouldnt encourage it.

And no even if we only look at prime foreman he could definitely absorb more punishment than prime tyson. Douglas was never known as this massive puncher and spent most of the fight on the back foot moving away from tyson operating behind a jab, tying him up, throwing an upper when he charged in, rinse repeat. He didnt really throw big bombs or combinations until the later rounds when he was sure he had tyson hurt.

Douglas, bruno, and ruddock were the only guys who really tested prime tysons chin. Bruno was scared and mostly held, blocked, and rabbit punched and the fight didnt last long anyway. Douglas was no massive puncher. Ill give him ruddock but its no more impressive than foreman taking blows from lyle, chuvalo, frazier, etc. Strong as he was, Ruddock was a 1 armed fighter who telegraphed many shots.

Idk what the punch stats are but in the 1st round alone, I believe Ali landed at least 15 right hand leads on foreman flush. Throughout the whole fight foreman was getting nailed by solid point blank blows with his head being snapped to the side, face bruised, and the sweat flying from his afro but he just ignored it and kept swinging at Ali like a madman. Thats some incredible neck strength.

Edit: one last thing, can tyson supporters PLEASE STOP USING PAST PRIME EXAMPLES TO SUPPORT TYSON WHEN ITS CONVENIENT? YOU CANT TELL PEOPLE TO IGNORE HIS FIGHTS WITH HOLYFIELD, LEWIS, ETC BUT THEN WHEN YOU WANT TO PROVE HOW TOUGH HE IS YOU'LL USE THESE FIGHTS TO SHOW HOW GOOD HIS CHIN WAS.

But if someone uses foremans fights when he was ancient, you say it doesnt count for a prime foreman!

 

You misunderstood.
I Didn't say he wasn't hurt vs Lyle. Infact I mentioned that stating how badly Foreman was hurt is a much better Argument than the KD statistic since it can be meaningless since weve seen tons of BS KD calls .

I disagree strongly with your statement that prime foreman takes more punishment than Tyson before going down. Tyson was never dropped early by a headshot his entire career and took more punishment from Douglas thanforeman did from Ali. Watch both fights again and you see Tyson's head violently snap back again and again.

The Bruno fight lasted about just as long as the Lyle fight.

I concede the point about me using past prime Tyson's but discounting Foremans second career. You're right about that one.

Tyson definitely has more stamina than foreman and is more disciplined when tired while foreman staggered around like a drunk.
Foreman probably gasses first.


Foremans big advantage is the forward momentum, size and physical strength although how much that matters depends on the leniency of the referee in regards to pushing.
In everything else Tyson is either equal or superior.
Foremans power is heavier but Tyson throws quick punches you can't always see, has a better arsenal and throws his shots in bunches.tyson was the better body puncher. Better defense. Better stamina. much better training and corner. Better speed. Atleast equal chin.

Foremans if problem is that he has a wide open and defense that punches up the middle very easily getthrough and the fact that foreman style pushing involves leaning forward and extending his arms at which point his body posture will be open for uppercuts and body shots from both sides like a Willy bag

 

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Well because Tyson usually hit his oponent with his best shot quite early unless you are literally fighting such a good fight that he doesn't land a good shot until really late after trying over and over. For example vs Douglas by the timethehstarted catching and wobbling douglas he had already taken a beating for 8rounds and against Lewis the ability gap was so huge that I don't remember Tyson landing a single big right hand like he decked golota with a few years earlier.

Tysons kind of came from behind vs Thomas and Botha but you're right he would have to get lucky since a late stoppage for Tyson only happened if he had been dominating and breaking his opponent down.

I agree with the rest. His stature and build didn't allow for any other plan. Not effectively anyway.

 

I think the whole Thomas thing has been blown out of proportion now. Tyson was way ahead on the official cards and i cannot fathom how he could have been behind in that fight prior to the stoppage.

 

Start watching the fight at the beginning of round 2 or 3. Tyson looks like absolute **** right up until he blasted him out. People fprget how badly tyson was doing in rounds 2-5 because those rounds were sandwhiched by a big round 1 and the knockout for tyson

 

Were gonna have to agree to disagree on the douglas vs ali fights. I just feel since douglas was circling away on the back foot he didnt have as much weight and leverage thus, he wasnt landing as solidly as ali who planted his feet with many right hand leads and powerful snappy combinations.

I do agree foremans exented arms and relying on arm strength and smothering leaves him open to uppercuts. And tyson for sure has the advantage in speed, defense, and overall ring iq. I have always acknowledged this whenever his discussion comes up.

The problem is tyson is ALSO susceptible to the uppercut with his short height and constant slipping, weaving, and pressing his way inside. Its inevtiable at some point foreman lands a big one unless tyson manages to blitz him and tske him out early. And i just dont see that happening. The more aggressive and trigger happy tyson gets, the more he negates his own advantages and gives foreman opportunities to counter him. Since foreman is taller and stronger with a reach advantage, this means that in a shootout, even if tyson has speed, foreman will inevtibaly end up landing more. And you yourself said they should be close in the chin department so the more he plays into foremans hands, the worse it gets.

Ideally, if you were working tysons corner the last thing youd want is for him to blitz right at foreman and try to land risky close range body shots or uppercuts--maybe later but definitely not early unless there were some big openings or foreman was badly hurt. Nobody survives standing right in front of foreman constantly on the attack.