Prime Foreman vs prime Mike Tyson who wins?

Douglas shots had alot of his bodyweigt behind them and had a visibly bigger impact. Douglas planted his feet plenty especially after the first 2 rounds last time I watched it which was a week ago.

Don't think foreman lands more than Tyson. I think Tyson outlands foreman 2 to 1 with foreman looking very awkward at times. Tyson's defense was superb. Foreman doesn't have the Handspeed to hit Tyson flush or the jab to set him up which Tillis Douglas and Tucker had.

You keep bringing up the moment foreman lands something big, yet Tyson was the more explosive puncher who was more likely to hurt someone suddenly out of nowhere unlike Foremans clubbing heavy predictable type of power which was maybe better at wearing someone out.

In tySons losses it wasn't something big suddenly getting him in trouble, in his losses he was outclassed and outskilled over several rounds and hit again and again and again until he had nothing left.

The way you imagine foreman winning never happened to Tyson while foreman demonstrated his lack of defense and susceptibility to be badly hurt and in jeopardy lf losing (as you yourself accurately described it) by a single punch vs lyle.
Tyson has knocked more and better guys cold with one quick shot than lyle.

Foreman needs to grapple with Tyson and push him back kind of like berbick tried but find way to tighten up his defense and also slow Tyson down enough with heavy body blows so that he can start hitting him in the head later on.
And he needs to do it without gassing out before tyson or getting knocked out himself which the grappling and mauling should help with. Tyson would possibly indulge him and allow being clinched like he sometimes did.

Don't think a straight shootout out is how foreman should do it. His defense and speed wasn't good enough just like Tyson's inferior defense and speed was a big factor in holyfield winning alot of the exchanges.
Imo beating your opponent to the punch, staying calm and having a good defense is more important in a slugfest than a a small edge in power. Especially since both guys are elite Punchers anyway

Example Roberto duran vs Barkley and Moore( Barkley was bigger stronger hit hard and had a good chin but duran was sooooo good at rolling with punches in the exchanges and coming back with counters)

 

I've watched the whole fight numerous times and watched it live with a mate. Never did i think Thomas was ahead or going to win or even piling up rounds. The fight slowed and Tyson lost some effectiveness and was struggling somewhat to find a finish but was never in trouble of getting behind on the cards for me. It just looks worse because we were accustomed to Tyson dominating belting hell out of people imo. Crusher had recently gone the distance but lost almost every round in a very passive effort. At least Thomas was in there and throwing a bit.

You had it 4 rounds to 1 for Thomas after 5?

 

4 to 1 or 3 to 2 . Tyson winning round 1 clearly but not landing many clean effective shots(the main judging criteria) afterwards until round 6.
Round 2 was close but thomas clearly outscored him in round 3 4 5.
Ring generalship? Tyson didnt have thomas anywhere near the ropes after round 1. Thomas was scoring points with his jab while tyson was just forcing clinches and maybe a couple times a round throwing a bomb.

Last time i watched the fight i haf just previously watched tyson botha and watching round 4 and 5 of the thomas fight tyson looked similarily distressed and uncomfortable although he was much more disciplined of course. A sure sign that tyson is uncomfortable is when he just kind of ducks and walks right into a clinch as if he intended the action to stop so he could take a break.

If you ever have the time just go watch starting from round 2 or 3. Tyson looked confused. A good, motivated version of thomas showed up that night and that was quite a bit more of a challenge than what tyson had faced before.

 

1-watch foreman vs chuvalo. Its a myth that prime foreman never had a good jab. He keeps the bullish, strong as an ox chuvalo at bay and the end of his jab for the entire fight.

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Chuvalo, an iron chinned powerful short necked heavyweight with good body shots and a nasty hook. Sound like anyone you know? Obviously they arent in the same class as fighters but it makes you think...foreman effortlessly handled him.

2-tyson lands more at first, but as it becomes a fire fight he'll constantly, as you suggest, get outwrestled and repositioned so that he'll be in range for foremans shots and not the other way around. Foreman was an absolute master of repositioning and setting up killer shots. His sense of position is very underrated:

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3-"suddenly hurting an opponent with something big" is exactly how foreman demolished frazier, norton, ledoux, etc. You do realize foremam holds records in early KO's and KO streaks? Foreman wasnt strictly a pound and wear you down fighter, even his sloppy arm punches would visibly shake, wobble, and send guys stumbling around.

"Explosive" punchers like joe louis, tyson, and wladmir actually had the opposite effect: when they hit an opponent, their body would freeze and it went right to their core and legs like they stuck a knife in a toaster. This is what allows them to follow up and deliver the finish in the first place. Their sharp, accurate blows almost seem to short circuit the opponent.

4-the holyfield fight is exactly why tyson would lose. Holyfield was a skinny light heavy in the amateurs and developed his strength artifically with PEDs and heavy weights. Foreman was already bigger and stronger than him as a teenager in the olympics naturally. When it came to roughhouse tactics and outbullying a bully, foreman could do anything holyfield could do and more. It would be extremely ugly. Tyson did not like those kinds of fights and once again, you yourself admit tyson kind of gave in with his "silent agreements" if an opponent attempted to wrestle and grapple him. Foreman would lick his lips at the opportunity!

 

foreman would knock tyson right out of his boots

 

All good arguments and like i said i dont count foreman out, just thunk tyson has a 50/50 chance.
Only thing i would add that foremans habit of keeping both hands out to keep someone away instead of just the left might get him hurt

 

troll

 

Oh dear, I guess that's me too. WHEEE!

Tyson does quite well early on and even backs up Foreman.

But Foreman ultimately knocks the hell out of him, drops him hard. The ref stops the fight with Tyson's eyes glazing over like a dead carp in the 3rd round...at the latest.

Mike was perfect for George, how often did you see him effectively fighting backing up? And believe me, George would back him up, whether by punching or shoving him into position.

Mike was incapable of changing his style, and once he went down he was always pretty much done not long after. The first time George catches him coming in wide open with the right hand, ouch. Holyfield knocked him across the ring like that, George would pulverize him.

Prime Mike would have had WAY more success with comeback Foreman.

 

Tyson beats any Foreman - young, old, prime, preacher...pick your poison. Foreman WISHES he could replicate what Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis were able to do.

 

GOOD level of debate! Contro & Glass City Cobra you both make very good cases for your fighter.
I do think that the stylistic & size avantage would overcome the speed advantage.
Prime Foreman-you have to grant him all the best attributes he had in his best fights, which would include a very good jab, not being dehydrated, etc.

Both guys would have great chins.
The question for me comes down to whether Tyson could establish the elusiveness & defense to get to the later rounds & have Foreman exhausted (since either could also lose a decision, & both could lose steam late).
You normally would only credit as possible with a great, likely at least fairly tall & long, HW boxer-type.
Because of his speed & skills, Tyson is a candidate to do this.

I just think it is more likely Foreman is able to get him before Tyson could wear Foreman down.
Or even win a decision with both exhausted.
The way Tyson could & would allow guys not as strong as Foreman to tie him up & push him back, let alone Foremans shoving-Tyson had his own illegal techniques, but none likely to be so effective against Foreman...

Clinches a likely Foreman victory for me.
No pun intended.

 

Every time I watch Mike...the way he pretty much always came in, with that quick head bob, practically the same rhythm. It would be great for Foreman, especially the one who seemed to study and predict the hell out of Frazier before their fight.

Mike...NOBODY could run or be made to run into those shots without eventually being devastated. Mike's chin was no better than Joe's, and his heart wasn't either.

I do see George getting hit and rocked hard...Mike was great with both hands and had freakily good hand speed for a puncher. It's just that George could bully and push him around and muscle him into the big punches. And George could take quite the shot.

If I'd ever seen Mike do anything besides his usual a) bob and feint and charge approach or b) the more restrained approach he took when it became obvious the fight wouldn't end in a knockout fast, I'd pick him. But he just had that ONE style, that was it. Frazier was pretty much the same, as far as mostly just having one way in. It foiled him against George, it would most certainly foil Mike.

Mike would rock George early, might even cause a flash knockdown. But it would end soon after. Tyson wouldn't hear the 4th round bell.

 

I agree with most all of this. Except it could go later, since Tyson did have a better chin-he fought bigger guys & more punchers than Frazier, who was rocked or put down by lesser fighters. Tyson's massive neck & build gives him some insulation.
But it would not be enough to go beyond getting him to a later round. Possible but unlikely going the distance, more likely a Ko or TKO.

 

Very simplistic view -- prime Tyson crouches a lot. Bad, bad idea against George. Then again, those wild swings George would do would give Tyson an easy opening, and setting yourself up for an easy counter is a bad, bad idea against Tyson.

I think it probably comes down to luck. Who manages to rock the other first probably ends up finishing it.

 

I personally think it would be a fantastic fight and one that I wouldn’t bet money on

 

That's the thing, Tyson was very fast but very mechanical. Timing beats speed and if Foreman avoids getting nailed by bombs early, it wouldn't take long for him to see Tyson's patterns and start grappling and walking him into those devastating space shuttle like uppercuts.

Well that's the thing, with the exception of the Ali and Lyle fights, Foreman didn't throw wild swings unless the opponent was badly hurt and ripe for the taking. Why not load up and out everything into a shot if you know it's going to land?

With Foreman's arms out, it was easy for him to party and catch hooks, but he was vulnerable to fast straight punches down the middle. That's why when he fought Ali who was close his own height and reach, he had serious problems because Ali could land blistering jabs and rights straight through the gaps in his mummy stance.

So at first it may be intuitive to think Tyson could also use his own impressive hand speed in a similar fashion to catch Foreman in the gaps of the mummy guard, but that's where reach comes in. He had T Rex arms and was better at winging hooks and uppercuts than straight shots like Ali. Even with the difference in hand speed, if the taller longer armed Foreman sticks his arms out it would make it difficult for Tyson to land a shot down the middle.

A better route would be for him to go to the side and hit Foreman in the belly with his trademark hooks to the body, then go upstairs. Use angles, get a hit or two, and back off. A short guy going straight at Foreman gets steamrolled or shoved back. That would be a horrible game plan. But if he used his speed and head movement to pivot around Foreman and keep him off balance it would be a much more competitive fight.

As for Tyson catching Foreman if he misses a punch, Tyson often "framed" a guy by using his forearm to stick his arm on a guy's neck and halt his movements before he could follow up with another shot. Or he might shove the guy back. As Rulesmakeitinteresting pointed out, several guys who didn't have remotely the same strength as Foreman easily tied Tyson up or pushed him back frequently. And Tyson did little to resist or fight on the inside..