Dempsey doesn't belong in HW top 5's. Perhaps not HW top 10's.

McGrain, you have a tremendous point here, most people will rate Dempsey top ten on well, folklore i guess is what it is.

I agree that Sharkey is the best fighter Dempsey beat also, although i do give him real credit for that one

 

Though covering points that have been addressed here before, a tremendous post nonetheless. I agree with it entirely....

Dempsey was a fine champion, but in many ways, he was enshrined as an icon that he probably should not have been...

I suppose part of the reason why he is placed among the American immortals, is probably for the same reason that primitive, slave owning, pompous figures like George Washington was. He was one of the first, and a romantic iconic figure. Such people are often given passes for their imperfections, especially given that they had the luxury of never being scrutinized by a more suffisticated public or techinically equipped media......It is the way of things, I'm afraid.. And 200 years from now, there will still be some who credit Dempsey as being among the elite, regardless of his faults, which as you've pointed out, are rather extensive........

 

I agree with the post and have made the same claims, but to play devils advocate we must ask:

1. Just because Dempsey didnt fight the strongest opposition does this mean he couldnt beat the strongest at his best?

2. Was it possible for Dempsey to face black fighters in the political climate? If not it cant be held against him

3. How far gone was Dempsey against Tunney? He was out of the ring for 3-4 years and semi-retired. How would a prime Dempsey do? Did Tunney always have the style to beat him?

4. Who was favourate between Wills and Dempsey?

PS Dempsey would have battered the old Langford
PPS you left Fulton off Dempseys record

He wasn't in my top10 last time I made 1, and i had Wills ahead of him but maybe they should be tied

 

Why didn't you mention guys like Gunboat Smith, Carl Morris, Fred Fulton and Bill Brennan, and Billy Miske in his run up to the title? Fred Fulton, Bill Brennan and Billy Miske were some of the best HW contenders of the day. Even Homer Smith and Dan Flynn were decent fighters. Also, Levinsky may not have been at his best, but he was still competing with some of the top heavy and light heavy's out there, and Dempsey handed him his first KO loss of his career, within three rounds.

 

You Have To Respect The Opinion Of The Many Many Experts Who Seen So Many Of The Great Ones Fight Including Joe Louis Who Many Now Days Rate 1 And Many Believed Dempsey Would Have Overwelmed Louis,and The Likes Of Wills And Others ,true He Wasnt A Very Impressive Champion,but As I Gatheryour Judging Him As A Fighter Not A Champion,and When He Was A (real)fighter He Def. Deserves Top 5 I.m.o.

 

i'm bored so i'll say you have some very good points but i would disagree in shades over a few points...

We have little evidence that Fulton, Levinsky or a prime Miske were not the same league as McVea. Granted, we will never know, but just because McVea, Johnson and Jeanette beat the bejesus out of one another, doesn't mean any was an entire world beater (see: my estimation of Jack Johnson). I mean, who was the greatest scalp the supposedly fearsome McVea KO'd? Pelkey? Please. Jeanette was a perennial loser. Johnson made much of his rep on beating this underwhelming crew, while the true great-Langford- raises the stock of all the aforementioned.

Bill Tate? Did you really bring up Bill Tate as an opponent?

The Miske-on-his-deathbed scenario is more myth than fact. He had some very nice wins AFTER the Dempsey fight. Brennan, Roper, Fulton...

Your worst offense is under-rating a motivated Willard. I love to hear the Johnson apologists tell me how old and depleted Jack was in Cuba while simulataneously he was schooling heavies in the 1930's. You can not have it both ways. Willard was custom-made for Johnson. Big, durable and hard-punching. I firmly believe a motivated Willard would have had a very good chance of beating Johnson at any point in his career.

Other than the above, yes, though I do love Dempsey, he is a bit over-rated and mythologized. The fellows on the otherside of the color line got jobbed by the times, but that does not necessarily mean they were better. Only Langford would I give a reasonable shot against a late-1910's Jack.

 

Here's a little bit of a deeper analysis. I'll attempt to adress some of your points.


Quality of opposition


Here are some of what I believe are Dempsey's best wins-


Billy Miske – Decisive 6 round points victory, brutal 3rd round KO.

Jack Sharkey – Come from behind one-punch KO in the 7th.

Fred Fulton – KO in 18 seconds of the 1st round.

Tommy Gibbons – Decisive 15 round points win.

Bill Brennan – Brutal 6 round beating resulting in 6 KD’s and a 6th round knockout, 12th round KO after a close fight.

Jess Willard – Horrific mauling resulting in 7 knockdowns and a 3rd round TKO victory.

Georges Carpentier – One sided beating and a 4th round KO.

Luis Firpo – Dempsey dominated the majority of the fight knocking Firpo down 10 times and knocking him out in the 2nd round. Yes, Firpo had his moments for sure, and came close to snatching the title, but I think that a big, tough, awkward, hard hitting, come-forward slugger like Firpo would trouble a lot of fighters of Dempsey’s particular style.

Battling Levinsky – Dempsey hands Levinsky his first KO loss in the 3rd round.

Gunboat Smith – 4 round decision victory, 2nd round knockout.


Dempsey pretty much obliterated every other contender for the heavyweight title in his pre-title career. Why would he be fighting Bearcat Wright and Bill Tate here? Didn't Bearcat Wright make his pro debut in 1920? Or am I thinking of a different Bearcat Wright? Bill Tate? Tate's record when Dempsey was a contender was something like 12-12. Dempsey was fighting the people he had to fight to get the title.



Ko’s over tough fighters-

Bill Brennan was only knocked out twice in his prime, both times by Dempsey. He was never off his feet until he met Dempsey.

Billy Miske was only knocked out by Dempsey, and though he was suffering Brights disease at the time, no one he fought during the same period was able to do what Dempsey did.

Luis Firpo was only knocked out in his prime by Dempsey, three times in his career. The other two times were in his very last fight and in his second.

Battling Levinsky wasn't in his prime, but he was still competative against most of the best heavy's and lightheavy's at the time he was KO'd by Dempsey. He was only knocked out three more times in his career, twice in his very last two fights.

Jess Willard was only knocked out by Jack Dempsey until his ill-fated comeback, in which he was KO’d by Luis Firpo after an 8 round beating. An earlier TKO victory was actually a corner retirement, according to boxrec, I have no idea what the circumstances there were. I’m not sure if Willard was ever even off his feet until the Dempsey fight, and Dempsey knocked him down for a 10 count in the first, but he was saved by the bell.


Also, yeah, he didn’t fight Wills, and yes, being that Wills was the top contender for so long Dempsey certainly should have tried harder to make the fight happen, but given the circumstances, the political climate of the time and the attitudes of those closest to Dempsey, it’s understandable why the fight didn’t happen. The Greb fight is a different story. It's entirley possible that Dempsey intended to fight Greb, but then Greb died and Dempsey lost the title. I can't really speak on this too much.

And, yes, Dempsey was inactive as a champion. He got off to a decent start but the allure of easy money from Hollywood and easy exhibition matches got the better of him. I don’t think this makes him any less of a fighter, though. Also, I don't think Dempsey's title opposition was really that soft.

One more thing. I'm not sure why you're trying to criticise Dempsey's win over Willard. There's really no room for criticism in that performance. Dempsey was put in the ring to take the title, and he did. I doubt anyone could have taken the title that night in a more brutal and dominating fashion than Dempsey did.

 

Well you have to put this into perspective and think like they did back then. The opinion makers, i.e. writers, promoters..... in other words, white people, had as much respect for black people as people have for a crackwhore right now. In fact, some didn't even consider them human beings. So, what would be more honorable that to screw over the career of a non-human entity?

So, within that mindset, Dempsey's historic record-holding duck job turns into a thing "good for our race", etc, so he's the big hero and Wills the big loser. Why do you think Louis was just crawling in the #8 spot of the top10 in the late 50's after he'd retired, with no trace of Wills and Dempsey comfortably in the top3? Also, information (no fight film at decent speed for one) was a lot harder to come by back then, so a lot of the consensus opinion, the heroic re-writing of history called autobiographies, etc, and that is what most people went by. Dempsey was on of the "big four" in sports, along with Babe Ruth and that tremendous amount of popularity can be seen in where he is ranked, but unrightfully so.

If you read his post, you will see that he praises Dempsey for a brilliant performance, but rightfully makes the point that despite the impressive manner of the victory, Willard was an awful fighter and Dempsey's status seems to be lifted a lot because of this fight. Willard was 37 years old in a time when fighters (and people in general) didn't grow very old... Jess hadn't won a fight in 3 years, he looked awful on film and barely had any skill.

This is inevitably the first footage of Dempsey that people see and they think "wow!" and easily copy the racist opinions that show no mention of Wills, being knocked out of the ring by someone who boxes worse than 90% of the people at my amateur gym, being dominated extremely one-sided by Tunney, wanting no part of Langford and Jeannette, etc etc.



I will say that despite Fulton having a glass jaw, that win was very impressive and should be included on Dempsey's resume.

 

I did read the post, and it just sounded to me as though McGrain was trying to attribute Dempsey's impressive performance more to Willards lack of skill, ring rust, overconfidence, ect., ect., rather than to Dempsey's own ability.

You're saying someone would have to be racist to support Dempsey? Racism is the primary reason Wills (or any other black fighter of that era) never got a shot at the title. Other than that racism doesn't really play a role in any of this. Next, Firpo may not have what would classically be defined as "skill", but what he did have allowed him to beat guys like Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan, Charley Weinert and Homer Smith, as well as gain 26 knockouts out of 32 wins. Firpo lacked skill, to say the least, but he had many attributes that made him formidable in the ring. Chin, size, power, gameness, to start. He certainly wasn't an all time great, but he was a dangerous fighter, for sure.

I believe that Dempsey's prime began at around the time of this fight, so, yes, prime Dempsey did lose a 4-round decision to Willie Meehan. Yay for Willie Meehan. We should all be proud of Willie Meehan's amazing accomplishments in the ring, and praise Willie Meehan for his awe-inspiring feats of 4-round excellence. Long live Willie Meehan!

 

A mix of both, for sure.

Now where did i say that?

Maybe, or maybe he was just seen as being too good. Langford sure was avoided. So was Jeannette. And Greb, who wasn't black.
Newspaper articles do drop Wills' name regularly when considering future opponents, so obviously they thought it was possible to make that fight.

Firpo was one of the few big men of that era that, despite horrible technique, had talent for punching power and a chin, so you see what happened. This fight makes me terribly pessimistic about Dempsey's chances against a 210+lbs puncher who actually knew how to correctly throw a punch.

And this brings me to another point, of all potential top10 candidates, Dempsey's chin is least tested (perhaps among with Jeffries). The best punchers he faced were Fulton, Willard and Firpo. The former two never landed on him and the latter knocked him down twice. Tunney, a former lightheavyweight knocked down him. 37 year old Flynn knocked him out in one.

 

Nowhere, I'm just not sure where you were going with that "racist opinions" statment.

Maybe nothing. Some cities wouldn't sanction a bout with Wills for fear of race riots, many promoters wouldn't promote the fight either out of fear of the same or out of idealistic racism. Racism was the biggest factor in no black heavy's getting a shot at the title in that era.

Jeanette was far past his prime by the time Dempsey got the title, and if you're referring to the incident in which Jeanette stepped in to replace one of Dempsey's opponents that dropped out and Kearns refused to take the fight on no notice, that's just smart management. Who would put their, still green, contender in with a dangerous veteran with no prior warning? Langford, likewise, was old by the time Dempsey got the title and was losing regularly. Dempsey didn’t want to fight Langford when he was younger because he new that would just be stupid, no way the Dempsey that drew with John Lester Johnson beats the Langford that was winning against Wills, McVea and Jeanette. At that time Dempsey also didn’t have proper management, and suspected that he manager at the time was trying to throw him to the wolves.

Yeah, I see what happened. I see Dempsey taking Firpo's best shots and refusing to stay down. I also see Dempsey smashing Firpo's granite chin to pieces.

People can similarly criticize Louis' and Frazier's chins. All three of them were knocked down or hurt throughout their careers. fact is, a prime Dempsey was only ever dropped in one fight. And if you don't count the Flynn KO (the board has been over and over that one, please, just leave it alone) then he was never knocked out in 83 fights. What about Marciano's chin? Nobody ever questions it, but what big punchers did he face? 37 year old Walcott and 42 year old Moore? Walcott staggered and dropped Marciano in their first fight, Moore similarly dropped Marciano in the first round of their fight, too. I'm not saying Dempsey had Marciano's chin, just that it's the case with most fighters that you can selectively look at a few fights and pick out a few times where they were hurt or dropped to support an argument that they had a shitty chin. In my opinion, Dempsey's overall durability, defense, chin and will would get him by a lot of big punchers.