Joe Louis and the Magnificent Seven

So I take it you and Mendoza agree that Louis drew the color line.

This paragraph is hard to decipher.

John Lardner apparently asks Mike Jacobs "Will you allow Louis to defend against Roscoe Toles."

I take it Mike Jacobs replies "Louis draws the color line, maybe he don't know it but he does."

Jacobs apparently also says, "Why do I bar Toles and Lewis? Because they wouldn't draw fiies that's why."

And this line, "Louis Draws Color Line against Roscoe Toles, So He hears." is apparently Lardner's extrapolation from what Jacobs said.

Problem for me. There is no quote from Louis at all. And that Louis in fact defended against Lewis the next spring proves Jacobs wasn't actually correct about Louis' attitude. Also, saying a guy wouldn't draw is not exactly the same as the color line. There can be a lot of reasons for that, such as being KO'd by the champion earlier.

As for Toles, he wasn't one of the top five contenders, and had been KO'd by Louis back in 1935. So had Max Baer, who was a much higher rated fighter than Toles, but Baer didn't get a return shot at Louis either. Why not focus on Baer.

 

Toles also last to Pastor in May of 1939. Hard to see why Louis should have fought Toles rather than Pastor.

 

"Dempsey and Jeffries"

That is because they did in fact draw the color line. Louis had three defenses against black opponents. Dempsey had six defenses altogether, and none against a black opponent, even though one, Harry Wills, was his outstanding contender. Both gave interviews drawing the color line.

"Louis and his team used the color line to avoid risks."

Well, when the best of these "risks" (Toles and Franklin) both lose to Pastor, and Ray loses to Walcott, Louis is obviously defending against bigger risks than the ones he didn't fight.

 

Joe Louis had three world heavyweight title defenses while facing black challengers. Before Louis, Tommy Burns, Jack Johnson and James J. Braddock each had one. So much for the assertion that Louis drew the color line during his reign.....

- Chuck Johnston

 

No I don't agree Louis drew the colour line .I believe Jacobs drew the colour line because he did not think two blacks would draw as much as two whites or a mixed pairing.Jacobs was stating quite candidly it was he who called the shots,it was he who selected Louis' challengers. Franklin cracked his right thumb on Simon's head this put him out of action for 6/8weeks.
The following months Ring's ratings had Conn 1 ,Pastor 2 Franklin 3, the NBA had Conn1 Franklin 2,Pastor 3. Conn was already pencilled in for Louis for June 42 the first outdoor seasons show.
A reporter asked Julian Black if he was willing to permit louis to fight Franklin,he replied,"if there is sufficient demand for a Joe Louis,v Lem Franklin fight it will be ok with us" Cleveland Plain Dealer November15th 1941.
Harry Grayson asked Louis if he would be willing to defend against Franklin?
He replied," with the greatest of pleasure Roxy and Chappie dont think much of him,but I know he has improved I keep track of all them fellas.Im going to see Franklin fight Pastor in Cleveland in February".
"He's a right hand puncher who depends on punching and hasa brittle hand.I hope that right hand stays in good repair,and he keeps knocking them fellas out until September,I'll be lookin for an appointment about that time."
"Louis Concerned About War Not About Challengers". Harry Grayson Middleboro Daily News Dec 30th 1941.
Below are some of Ochs comments.
"Julian Black and Louis' comments left no doubt the drive to make Lem a financially credible opponent was working.Their answers demonstrated that discussions between Jacobs and the Louis camp about Franklin had progressed to the point where a date for the fight was already under consideration.The fact that Mike planned a big show at an out door stadium in September rather than an indoor card during the winter or spring indicated that he now thought the public's interest substantial."
He goes on to say Hurley was troubled by the time frame mentioned and that in the two months after the Simon fight,Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.
"Louis had already received his draft papers and passed1A." "The Chicago draft board notified Joe he would probably be called within a month."Cleveland Press "Louis Seen In Army Soon".Oct18th 1941.
Ochs says a Louis v Franklin fight was tentatively scheduled for September .
Jacobs managed to get a delay on Louis' call up so he could defend against Buddy Baer onJan 9th 1942 proceeds to go to the Nay Relief Fund.
After this Louis was officially in the Army,but Jacobs wangled a further defence for Louis to benefit the Army Relief Fund the fight to take place in March ,no opponent had yet been selected. Hurley pressured Jacobs to forget about Louis defending against Franklin in September and instead move the bout ahead to fill the Army Relief Fund spot. Hurley hopeda good performance by Franklin in his next bout which was already scheduled for Cleveland inFeb would push Jacobs into giving Franklin preference for the Army defence. As we know Franklin fought Pastor got stopped and that was the end of that grand plan. All this is in Ochs book.

 

Well take it up with Mike Jacobs,I'm trying to give you background from a highly regarded trilogy of books and you're looking down your nose at it.
If you have problems with it, or want more detail why don't you buy the bloody books yourself?

 

I have some trouble believing that Louis avoided certain contenders, who were not the best or brightest of the era, in order to fight the men who beat them.

That is what we are being asked to believe.

 

No, you just are too stupid to grasp what was going on . Louis ko'd John Henry Lewis inside one round.Eight months earlier Lewis had stopped Elmer Ray whom you say Louis avoided. Jim Jeffries invoked the colour line his whole title reign.that is undeniable .

 

The guy is just that thick he thinks he is making some progress with this!

 

Franklin broke his thumb in the Simon fight. That put him out of action for 2 months. A little thing called Pearl Harbour then occured Louis defended his title for free against Buddy Baer,Jack Hurley matched Franklin against Pastor and Pastor stopped him. Louis then defended for free again against Simon who had taken him into the 13th rds in their previous fight.Franklin then got ko'd in 1 round by Harry Bobo and, 3 months later ko'd in 1 round again by Phil Muscato.


Bubble well and truly burst!" Do you think you can grasp it now?

 

Thanks for all the info. It clearly shows Louis and his management were not ducking Franklin. I kind of suspected that they probably originally wanted to wait for a summer outdoor fight for a big gate (probably staged at Cleveland's immense Municipal Stadium) but that the intervention of the war caused Hurley to move up his timetable to the earlier indoor fight.

I was just guessing and knew nothing about it, but it appears I guessed more or less the truth.

All we disagree about is whether Jacobs was correct in assuming a Louis defense against a strong black contender wouldn't draw, although how stubbornly he held that position appears in doubt.

 

I am not disputing that Jacobs might have thought that way. I am disputing the gate receipts really proving he was correct. Unless these books have different gate info than the old Ring Record Books, I don't see how they can impact my position.

My main dispute on these Franklin and Magnificent Seven threads is with Mendoza's thinking that Louis was ducking his top challengers.

How well Louis did/would draw with black contenders is a bit of a diversion.

 

Scratch my rude remark in my previous post I thought you were having a pop at me,having seen your last post I can see you were not.Apologies.