Calzaghe vs Ward break down of strengths? Very even across board

Kovalevs best wins are arguably Hopkins and Pascal (I had him beating Ward 116-111, but he didn't get the verdict).

Now Kovalev beat Hopkins SIX years after Calzaghe beat him.

Now Kovalev beat Pascal THREE years after Hopkins had beaten him.

Hopkins was top 3 P4P when Joe beat him.....yet Ward beat the better fighter at 175 and Wards 175 resume was "vastly better" (in your words) because he beat Kovalev who's best wins were against a Hopkins 6 years after JC and a Pascal 3 years after Hopkins had beaten him and 2 years after JC had beaten Hopkins.

You see where I'm going with this don't you?

 

Simply put:
Andre faced the best his era had to offer.
Joe did not, at least until Jones was shot to **** and Hopkins was 44, outside of Kessler.

Andre faced his notable opponents in or near their primes.
Outside of Kessler, Joe did not.

Andre entered the Super Six after 19 fights.
Joe fought a guy who was 13-22-1 after 19 fights.
Andre's Super Six run on was a tougher stretch of opponents than Joe ever faced.

Andre was universally considered the top 168 pounder for the majority of his career.
Joe lived in Jones shadow as long as Roy was at 168, only taking #1 after (and because) Roy left the division.

Andre was ranked higher pound for pound than Joe ever was.
Andre faced a prime P4P #3 opponent, a greater challenge than Joe ever took.

 

See my post above. It is you who keeps moving the goal posts.

Joe had his one A level win over Kessler and a solid A-/B+ win over Hopkins (which could have gone either way). But saying he's an ATG or even above Ward due to 2 good wins is silly.

 

Thank you. I try to be.

 

Same here.

 

So you are just ignoring my points to suit what is an obvious agenda with yourself.

 

Yes you have.

"Joe was an interesting guy. He just wasn't a world beater"

Your quote yet he beat 11 current/former/future title holders.

His best win at 168 was a young undefeated Kessler.

He beat Hopkins who was top P4P 3, SIX yearsbefore Kovalev did.

Yet wards 168 and 175 run is vastly superior?.....again your words.

What I'm doing here is getting you to think outside the bubble and actually look at what both fighters achieved.

You say Ward beating Kovalev is better than JC beating Hopkins yet Kovalevs best wins are against Pascal that Hopkins had beaten after JC beat him and against Hopkins SIX years after Calzaghe beat him.

 

You mean the same thing you are doing?

I'm over this discussion. Joe had a pretty long run in a pretty weak division. You can boxrec warrior the **** out of it, but that's what it was.

I'll take a guy with an Olympic medal, who won a premier professional tournament, cleaning out his prime rivals in the process, then jumped up in weight to beat a prime version of a guy people thought was a huge challenge over a guy with 2 good wins every day.

You are on a Quixotic mission here. I'll never consider Joe as more than what he was: a guy who avoided the biggest challenges possible. I'll never discount those 2 wins, they were meaningful.

 

You are over this discussion because you know you have literally no answers to my questions and your claims.

Both fighters, Ward and Calzaghe are great fighters, lock HOF.

168....

Wards best win is a Calzaghe leftover....yet he beat better fighters.

Kovalevs best win is Hopkins, SIX years after Calzaghe did.....yet Wards victory over Kovalev is better than Joes over Hopkins.

Again you see where I'm going and what I'm getting at don't you?

 

I'm over this discussion because it will never end. You will boxrec the **** out of this thing, completely ignoring when Joe faced guys and focusing on trinkets.

Ward is a great fighter. Joe is a very interesting fighter and a fun hypothetical match up figure due to his awkward style and the fact he generally didn't face a fighter of the caliber discussed in those types of threads.

Ward had a consistently harder run than Joe. The talent level at 168 was deeper when Andre ruled the division.

Joe didn't even face Ottke, much less Jones when all both available. Ward faced the best his era had to offer while they were still prime or near it. His resume is deeper than 2 wins.

Go ahead and quote me and enjoy the last word. I look forward to what boxrec has to say about this matter.

 

What's with the boxrec?

I'm giving you actual facts that you are choosing to ignore.

Wards 168 run was so epic....really?

Kessler ( JC victim)
Green ( c level at best and stopped by Johnson in his next fight).
Bika (JC victim)
Abraham ( solid 160 at 168 very hit and miss)
Froch (been beaten by Kessler but a quality win)
Dawson (quality win on paper but Dawson was drained and stopped in 1 in his next fight)
Rodriguez (C level at best without 1 win of note)

175

Smith jr (blown up British level 160 fighter)

Brand (top 40 type fighter)

Kovalev (excellent win but best win was Hopkins 6 years after JC beat him).

Seriously just look at the facts.

 

1. It doesn't take epic to eclipse Joe's run of mediocrity. It just takes solid. Andre's run from his 19th fight on was at minimal solid, which eclipses any run Joe ever had.

2. Every conversation with a Joe fan turns into a boxrec warrior debate devoid of context. Like the fact Andre faced that run consecutively while Joe always had soft touches between notable bouts, or the way Joe essentially drew with Hopkins while Kovalev brutalized him and had fans and broadcasters worried about Hopkins health.

3. Further context is that while Joe was beating the Veits and Manfredo's of the world, he was not facing the true class of his division. Ambition goes a long way with me.

Facts without context are useless.

Joe and Gatti are the low bars in the IBHOF, IMO, and I loved watching Gatti fight simply for the tremendous displays of heart.

 

How ****ing dense are you?

That run by Ward is nothing special at all.

Say boxrec all you want but I'm giving you facts and the honest truth that you have just compared Calzaghe with Gatti just proves that son.....YDKSAB.

 

Veits and Manfredos as opposed to what Allan Green and Edwin Rodriguez?

That group are the same level.

 

Awesome, name calling. That run by Ward doesn't NEED to be great to eclipse what Joe did. That's the point.

I've been following this sport since birth, trained in gyms, and Joe Cal is a mere footnote, a champion in a division not as old as I am who wasn't the best at the weight class.

I have a feeling if Ward were a white guy from Europe you'd be singing a different tune.