Need clarification on Sullivan & his use of gloves

The documentary is wrong.

Sullivan only had three fights with bare knuckles, in a career of over a hundred fights.

He did however fight a few fights under LPR rules, with hard gloves (basically tight fitting leather gloves).

The overwhelming majority of his fights were under Queensbury rules, with gloves ranging from 4-8oz.

Sullivan defended his title more than twenty times, under Queensbury Rules, with gloves.

 

Charley Mitchell.

He also fought all three men under Queeensbury Rules.

 

Are you sure it didn't say it was the first time it changed hands under MoQ

 

It sounds like the authors of those articles, confused "first time it changed hands", or "first time it was contested."

An easy mistake for some posters to make, never mind a journalist delving into the mater for the firs time!

 

Hard gloves sometimes, soft gloves sometimes, skin tight gloves sometimes. It kind of depends on the setting. I'd say general rule of thumb is if you mean to have a match that allows each person to display their talent without the threat of too serious disfigurement they went with soft gloves. If your an English champion and a nobel man wants to pay you buttloads for a real fight you're probably going to want soft gloves because you want to win not disfigure the lord. Inversely, in the US, boxing began on the bottom, they called it Rough and Tumble and no man of class would step foot near it. Those guys are not likely to agree to anything they just get to fighting, but if they are to agree to glove hard gloves would be your most likely. Because they want to disfigure. I'm not saying the UK uses soft and the US uses hard so much as using those situations that were prevalent at the time. If fellas in the UK want to hurt each other they'll fight with hard gloves I'm fairly certain. The third type, skintight, is for hand protection and nothing else. They offer no serious additional damage or protection outside of helping keep hand bones aligned.

The ancient greeks used soft wraps, they evolved into harder wraps overtime, by the time Rome is in full swing they're using spiked and bladed hard wraps.

Not sure what the Russian gear is, been a while since I looked at that stuff and I'm not as familiar with it as I am 18th or 19th or ancient hellenistic.

Hope that helps, I'll look around for some good examples for others but right off the bat one of my all time favorites is Nonpareil Dempsey vs John Reagan in skin tight gloves.

 

Janitor, since you seem to be well-versed on this subject, let me ask you. Since I started delving into the history of boxing in the early '70s, I always read that, technically, Sullivan never was heavyweight champ of the world. He was the American champ and the Corbett fight was the first time the tag heavyweight championship of the world was really ever used. Is that about right? I always recalled him winning the title (American) from Paddy Ryan on a 9th round KO, but that bout seems to have been expunged from his record on boxrec. Can you elaborate on this?

 

I recall years ago watching the Errol Flynn flick 'Gentleman Jim'. There was a part in it where he is about to fight on a barge and the manager of the other fighter takes the padded boxing gloves that his fighter is supposed to wear and tosses them in the drink. He then claims that since he doesn't have another pair that they will wear skin-tight gloves while Corbett wears the padded ones. There are screams of protests that the corrupt manager's fighter will have an unfair advantage, yada, yada, and then Corbett bravely states that he will accept. Now, barring the skull-doggery and chicanery of filmdom, I did find a brief passage in and old RRB that I have that corroborates the fact that the one fighter, who appears to be Choynski, did wear skin-tight gloves to Corbett's padded gloves, on a barge. Anyone have any other info on this one?

 

To give you the events in order:

The world title was originally created by unifying the British and American titles, and Jem Mace became the first recognized world heavyweight champion after he defeated Tom Allen.

After Jem Mace retired, Joe Goss claimed the British Title, and Tom Allen claimed the American Title. They then fought to create a new World Title lineage, with Goss defeating Allen. Goss then lost his claim to Paddy Ryan, who in turn lost it to Sullivan. Most historians today seem to accept the Goss Ryan Sullivan World Title lineage, as a valid one, but some people at the time disagreed.

The National Police Gazette refused to recognize Sullivan as champion, because he refused to defend his title under LPR rules. At the same time Tug Wilson claimed the British Title. The Police Gazette proposed a fight between Jimmy Elliot and Tug Wilson for the vacant world title, but Tug Wilson retired. This left Sullivan chasing the rival British Title claim.

Sullivan defeated Charlie Mitchell in a gloved contest to claim the British Title, but some refused to recognize his claim, because the bout had not happened under LPR rules. This forced Sullivan to fight Mitchell under LPR rules, but the fight ended in a draw, so no title claims changed hands. Eventually the rival title claim passed to Jake Killrain, and Sullivan fought Killrain under LPR rules, and defeated him.

The Killrain LPR bout seems to have ended any dispute that Sullivan was the true world champion, though I don't personally think that the rival title claim was very credible.

 

Thanks, Janitor. Good digging. Y'know, your text on the issue with the Police Gazette seems to have struck a chord. I'm trying to recall a story now. Did Sullivan have some issue with the editor or a writer there? Was his name Fox?

 

He did indeed.

They hated each other.

It seems to have been a clash of egos.

Fox was always looking to set somebody else up as the champion.

 

Articles of agreement.
... The fight shall be for the sum of $2,500 a side and the championship of America. ...

1870-05-11 The New York Herald (New York, NY) (page 3)
Thus in ten rounds, in forty-four minutes, terminated the fight for the championship of America between two of England's best buffers.


1870-05-14 Spirit of the Times (New York, NY) (page 194)
As we expected he would from the first, Mace defeated Tom Allen at New Orleans on Tuesday last with great ease, in the fight for the Championship. It has been styled a fight for the Championship of America, but, inasmuch as both the men were born and grew to manhood in England, that seems to be rather a misnomer. When the English and French armies fought their bloody battles in the low countries, the coc kpit of Europe, it was never claimed that they were contending for the Championship of Flanders.


1870-05-14 The Sporting Life (London, England) (page 4)
The Atlantic cable brings the intelligence that the match between Mace and Allen, for 5,000 dollars and the Championship of America, took place on Tuesday last, on the banks of the Mississippi, and about thirteen miles above New Orleans.


1870-05-21 New York Clipper (New York, NY) (page 49)
The great battle between Jim Mace, ex-champion of England, and Tom Allen, champion of America, for the American championship and $2,500 a side.


1870-05-25 Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle (London, England) (page 4)
The fight between Mace and Allen, for the championship of America and five thousand dollars.


Long series of articles, which started in 1880-06-05 issue, written by William E. Harding, sporting editor of National Police Gazette, who in 1870 reported Mace-Allen bout for New York Daily News and Boston Herald.
1881-06-25 The National Police Gazette (New York, NY) (page 10)
American Prize Ring
--------
Mace accordingly made overtures to Allen for a match for $5,000 a side and the championship of this country.