Frazier had struggled in a non-title with Bonavena 2 years before this Title fight with Bonavena. Also, Liston was not invited to the WBA Tourney, and rumor was that a Frazier v. Liston NYSAC World Heavyweight Title could be in the works. If Frazier looked bad, and Liston looked real good, Frazier might have been forced into a fight he was not really ready for (see Foreman v Frazier result)....plus the Ellis unification fight was still a year away. That is my rational.
I wonder, if Frazier and Liston fought then and Liston stopped Frazier, what would it have meant for Frazier's career?
It never would happen, frazier was no patterson, he was a natural hw and built like a tank, prime for prime frazier weighed 205-210 and the highest weight of liston in his late 20s was 212 pounds. YES, LISTON DID NOT WEIGHT 218 NOR 220.HE WAS PONDEROUS AND INFLATED AT THESE WEIGHTS, I DON'T CARE A CRAP ABOUT IF HE FOUGHT PATTERSON AT 215 IN HIS 30S,IN HIS PHYSICAL PRIME IN HIS 20S HE WEIGHED BETWEEN 204 (1958) at 28 and 212 (1960 williams 2) at 30. Liston never weighed over 212 in his 20s. Frazier in 1967 vs marion connor weighed 210 at 23 years old. In 1972 against terry daniels weighed 215 at 28 years old. 217 1/2 against stander at 28. 206 against Ali. At 27 209 against bob foster at 26 205 against ellis at 26 Frazier at 209 https://goo.gl/images/Gf6CV5 https://goo.gl/images/rGYzjY This content is protected He was simply perfect at 209 Frazier vs daniels at 215 1/2 pounds This content is protected Liston was 6 1/2 and frazier 5'11 so frazier was more compact they are pretty even in natural weight.
So Liston wouldn't stop Frazier because he didn't weigh enough? The time of the match you are comment on would have been around 66 i reckon. You don't think it's more important that Frazier was extremely green? Liston tho just beaten by Ali was in quite reasonable form and would have gone much better against a more stationary target. You've gone to serious extremes trying to separate Liston and Foreman and the perceived (on one side) performance against a common foe. There's little or nothing between Foreman and Liston power wise. Chuck Wepner said an old Liston was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Both hit just about as hard as you can possibly hit. Both imo would have the power to stop Frazier's forward momentum. I think Liston would probably take a few more rounds than Foreman did. A handful of pounds here and there isn't making a difference here. Liston certainly loses nothing to Frazier himself on size. Liston hit like a runaway freight train. If weight was so crazily important anyone well built over 220 would have ATG power. Earnie Shavers, named by countless opponents as the hardest hitter they ever faced often came in around 205-211. He was around 211 when hitting Ali and Holmes so ridiculously hard but often came in lighter.
I've always imagined that a fight between Liston and Frazier would be like Foreman/Frazier 2. With Liston stopping him by mid rounds.
What gets me is that one will say something like Liston didn't hit as hard as Foreman because Liston was 212 pounds and Foreman 220 pounds. But will then say 220 pound Foreman hit harder than 245 pound Lennox Lewis or 250 pound Anthony Joshua. If it's so implausible that Liston was alot less powerful than Foreman due to 8 lbs, how does Foreman give away 25-30 pounds and be just as powerful or more so?
Good point. I believe that once you get over about 200lbs if you have the genetics and technique you are going to hit as hard as just about anyone. Shavers, Liston, Louis, they are pretty much hitting as hard as anyone and they sit around 200-215. Foreman was 217 1/2 when he decimated Frazier. Tyson at 215-220, big big hitters all of them. Wilder in his last two bouts has been a smidge under 221 and 215 and he's certainly got KO power. All these guys have the power to KO just about anyone and can certainly drop super heavies for the count.
I agree that Liston had the stylistic advantage, & that even later in his career Frazier likely gets stopped by middle-late in the fight. Also yes, the best natural (supplemented by training & practice of course) punchers at over 200...There are diminishing returns, if that, after this point. Also that Frazier being (maybe) marginally heavier for his weight is meaningless. Liston had more upper body muscle, Frazier the bottom, it worked for each. Also tiny points, Frazier was 205 for the FOTC. And vs. Foster, the scale maye have been 4-5 lbs. too heavy for the weigh in. You can hear them say this in announcing the actual bout. I am guessing intentionally, to make Foster seem like a more legitimate HW threat.
Yea Liston had the power to hurt Joe. To make matters worse Frazier is coming right into his wheelhouse. Sonny even older just has to drop the hammer. Not saying Joe couldn't hurt him but in '66 As you said Frazier wasn't bobbing and weaving like he would later in his prime. He would be easier to catch on the chin coming in. Eddie Futch quit his job at the post office in California and worked with Joe fulltime after the Bonevena fight.
Lol ... You boring me with "wepner said.. The other one said..." WEPNER COULD SAY ****... THE FACTS SAID THAT A GREEN FOREMAN STOPPED WEPNER IN 3 AND HE LASTED 9 WITH LISTON AND GOT STOPPED BY A CUT. FOREMAN WAS NATURALLY BIGGER,STRONGER AND DID HIT HARDER.
Yes,the difference is that foreman was light and slim at 217 and he had a 230.frame... Liston was a natural 212 fighter ,shorter with a different style...huge difference