Who was the better heavyweight Tami Mauriello or Elmer a Ray?

A guy who lost against Gus Lesnevich ain’t beating the Elmer Ray who defeated Walcott and Charles

 

I’d be surprised. Ray beat a prime Walcott and Charles, two top 20 heavyweights of all time.

Who did Tami ever beat? He went 0-4 against Lesnevich who was scared out of his mind to fight Charles, then we he finally got in the ring with Charles, got badly destroyed. Ray beat Ezzard Charles at his peak. He had a very close match with Lee Savold, who put him on the floor. Ray knocked Savold out cold in 2 rounds,

Sure he shook up an off balance louis with 1 right hand, Braddock also did the same thing, Louis was prone to being hurt. 50 seconds later Mauriello was knocked out. We don’t know how ray would have done against Louis because Louis management was not very keen on facing Ray if they didn’t have too

 

And what we have with Mauriello is

A fighter who looks mediocre on film

A fighter who has a mediocre record

A fighter who in his prime never has any exceptionable wins, but had exceptionally bad losses (Shkor, and lesnevhich 2x) and very close fights with men Elmer Ray destroyed (Savold)

Not much room for interpretation

I’m going with Ray....

 

Muariello got a lot more opportunities to fight other top contenders because he was white. Ray had two strikes against him. He was black and could hit

"Elmer (Violent) Ray has the extraordinary distinction of being the only man Joe Louis wouldn't even meet in an exhibition. Louis boxed Dan Merritt of Cleveland instead, and stood watching as Ray, a crowding weaver and bobber with the speed of a swiftmiddleweight, ironed out Claudio Villar, a Spaniard, in 29 seconds flat.
"Arturo Godoy and Tami Mauriello rejected guarantees to square off with Ray at Madison square Garden, Lee Oma the Violent One's share of the swag in addition to his own. Joe Baksi and Lou Nova refused. Melio Bettina will have nothing to do with the Hastings Hammerer. Jimmy Bivins turned down the chance to march front and center with him in Los Angeles, where the terror recorded 19 knockouts in a row. The current Joe Walcott will have no truck with him in Baltimore...Currently he is drawing and at Miami's Negro ball yard, Dorsey Park, while putting the slug on such as Dan Merritt and Al Patterson, the latter a slatty character out of Pittsburgh. "It's better than wrestlingalligators and fighting nine guys at once," beams Violent Ray."
-The Coshocton Tribune, March 8, 1946

"None of the near-name heavies wants any part of Ray, who in a New Orleans battle royal knocked out nine opponents with one hand tied behind his back."

"...in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford. You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him. Louis is that way with Ray. It’s silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida."
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947


“Walcott Charles Savold”

Ray beat the same peak version of Walcott who nearly dethroned Louis a year later. This is a great win.

Ray beat a peak Ezzard Charles whose only loss from 1946-1950 was Ray. This is a great win.

These two wins alone trump Mauriello entire resume


“Savold”

Probably on the same level as Mauriello. When Edward and I made a top 50 heavyweights 1930-1960, Savold ranked higher than Mauriello. Ray destroyed Savold in two rounds


His blow-out over Savold is very impressive, as Savold hadn't been stopped in his last 40 fights and wouldn't be stopped again for another five years and 15 fights afterwards, both of those runs including numerous matches against elite opposition. According to the NY Times account, Ray knocked Savold through the ropes with a right hand early in round two, Savold climbed back in off the ring apron, and Ray promptly hit him with a short right to the jaw that knocked him out cold flat on his face.


I also think it's true that Ray really didn't get many chances to prove his power against elite opposition during his peak run- the Thompson fights were a little before Ray really hit his stride, and even then, Thompson was a very durable and hard-hitting guy, and Walcott and Charles were both extremely difficult to stop in their primes (Walcott stopped only by Marciano and Louis from 1941-53, Charles stopped only by Marciano and Walcott from 44-54). Ray did destroy Savold. If guys like Oma, Pastor, Nova, Mauriello, etc. would have gotten in the ring with him, I think Ray would likely have accumulated a much more impressive high-level knockout resume than the one he actually has. Even a prime Turkey Thompson lost once and went to a split decision in the rematch against gatekeeper Perk Daniels (who Ray beat twice, once by shut-out and once by KO, shortly thereafter).Ray knocked out absolutely everyone who wasn't a future world champion that he faced over a five-year-plus period in his own peak.

And in his fights against upper-tier journeymen, the accounts routinely describe how the other guy was never in the fight as Ray chased him down or bounced him off the floor like a basketball- note that several of these guys were able to give other contenders serious trouble or beat them, such as Sid Peaks, who beat Lee Q. Murray and Jimmy Bivins (I believe Peaks was in the top 10 when Ray beat him), Daniels, who beat Thompson and Sheppard, McAlpine, who had a reputation for durability and gameness and had just taken Comiskey to a split decision. Leroy Haynes, who defeated primo carnera twice. Willie Reddish, who defeated Roscoe Toles. Chaney, who beat Lee Oma. Ray went out there and crushed these guys every time, wiped out Savold (who all the other contenders were going the distance with and having a heck of a time beating) like another club fighter, then defeated both Walcott and Charles,and aside from the Thompson rematch lost only to Walcott and Charles, then only in highly-competitive fights. I think this is a much higher consistent standard of performance than the one muariello was performing in his prime which resulted in several close fights, losses to Baksi Oma and his 3rd and 4th losses to light heavyweight Lesnevich and stoppage loss to journeyman Johnny Skhor.

I didn’t mention it as a win, but it seems like ray got screwed out of a win in the first Thomson fight which was ruled a NC



the first Turkey Thompson fight:

This was a No Contest, resulting from a low blow by Thompson that incapacitated Ray in round six of their match. Looking through accounts of the match, it seems that Ray was apparently creaming Thompson before the NC and that Thompson actually threw two hard, flagrant low blows, one in the second and one in the sixth, possibly to bail himself out of trouble. The Modesto Bee account, August 10th, 1943, reads, "Turkey Thompson still wore his crown today after a match with a tough Floridian named Elmer Ray, who punched his better known opponent around the ring for six rounds only to have Referee Lee Ramage atop the bout with no decision after Ray had been fouled twice," and according to the Fresno Bee Republican, "Ray had won all five rounds and was out in front in the sixth when he was hurt by a low blow and Ramage stopped the bout."

I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like Ray was pretty badly ripped off in this fight. Under many commissions, I would expect that to be a DQ win for ray

 

“Higher level of opposition”

Here we disagree. Ray fought Charles and Walcott. These two men are the highest quality in the division outside of Louis. Mauriello never fought either man.

Mauriello fought white men like Baksi, oma, nova, Lesnevich. None of these men were any better fighters than Savold whom ray stretched out in 2 rounds.

Now you can argue Mauriello resume was deeper, but ray blows him away in quality

As for why ray didn’t get to take on more of the top white contenders like Mauriello, the reason was they wouldn’t fight him because he was black and had a lot of punching power. Even Mauriello refused to fight him in the garden.

"Elmer (Violent) Ray has the extraordinary distinction of being the only man Joe Louis wouldn't even meet in an exhibition. Louis boxed Dan Merritt of Cleveland instead, and stood watching as Ray, a crowding weaver and bobber with the speed of a swiftmiddleweight, ironed out Claudio Villar, a Spaniard, in 29 seconds flat.
"Arturo Godoy and Tami Mauriello rejected guarantees to square off with Ray at Madison square Garden, Lee Oma the Violent One's share of the swag in addition to his own. Joe Baksi and Lou Nova refused. Melio Bettina will have nothing to do with the Hastings Hammerer....Currently he is drawing and at Miami's Negro ball yard, Dorsey Park, while putting the slug on such as Dan Merritt and Al Patterson, the latter a slatty character out of Pittsburgh. "It's better than wrestlingalligators and fighting nine guys at once," beams Violent Ray."
-The Coshocton Tribune, March 8, 1946

 

Ray was the only man to beat Ezzard Charles in his prime, and also beat the same Walcott who clowned Joe Louis in Madison square Garden over 15 rounds...

He knocked out Lee Savold in 2 rounds out cold. Savold was on the same level as Baksi, oma, Mauriello, nova.

That’s an enigma to you?

“He didn’t back them up in the ring”

Except he did since he defeated two prime ATGs and earned a number 1 ranking. He didn’t get his title shot against Louis because of a number of factors, but it’s clear Louis management was not in a hurry to face him. Louis refused to box exhibitions or even spar with Ray in 1946 claiming that Ray "didn't know how to fight an exhibition" and one of them was liable to get hurt, and in spite of Ray compiling a 50 fight winning streak.

 

Where are these “very good wins” by Mauriello? Let’s hear em. I see a bunch of above average wins that all

Two exceptional wins over Walcott Charles, very good win over Savold, and above average wins over Daniels, peaks, Haynes, Reddish, Chaney, rate over Mauriellos wins.


Bottom line is because of the color of his skin and the fact he could hit really hard, he was avoided like the plague by the top white contenders except for one who got axed in 2 rounds, and the heavyweight champion of the world refused to spar or exhibition with him in 1946 and did not relish getting in the ring with him for a world title shot either

 

As I’ve outlined above I think ray had the better accomplishments

And in his fights against upper-tier journeymen, the accounts routinely describe how the other guy was never in the fight as Ray chased him down or bounced him off the floor like a basketball- note that several of these guys were able to give other contenders serious trouble or beat them, such as Sid Peaks, who beat Lee Q. Murray and Jimmy Bivins (I believe Peaks was in the top 10 when Ray beat him), Daniels, who beat Thompson and Sheppard, McAlpine, who had a reputation for durability and gameness and had just taken Comiskey to a split decision. Leroy Haynes, who defeated primo carnera twice. Willie Reddish, who defeated Roscoe Toles. Chaney, who beat Lee Oma. Ray went out there and with the exception of Reddish crushed these guys every time, wiped out Savold (who all the other contenders were going the distance with and having a heck of a time beating) like another club fighter, then defeated both Walcott and Charles,and aside from the Thompson rematch lost only to Walcott and Charles, then only in highly-competitive fights. I think this is a much higher consistent standard of performance than the one muariello was performing in his prime which resulted in several close fights, losses to Baksi Oma and his 3rd and 4th losses to light heavyweight Lesnevich and stoppage loss to journeyman Johnny Skhor.