The great Ezzard Charles vs Smoking Joe Frazier

For sure. I should add that i think plenty of guys in the 200-225 bracket could compete and win against the modern behemoths.

 

Its not a question of who wins, it's only a question of when Charles folds

 

I can see the reasoning behind this.

 

Frazier wins in some fashion, but Charles will have his moments.

 

Rocky was a better fighter than Joe, but styles make fights, and Ezzard had nothing to keep Frazier off.

 

Talking strictly Heavyweights.

 

I reckon the three kings of the golden era of HWs are all massively overrated thanks to Don King and PPVs and I'm not totally convinced Joe would whoop Ezzard.

Joe Frazier is not the superior Marciano at all. They're pretty ****in' different actually. Joe Frazier has loads more boxer in him. Watch as Joe uses proper footwork to close in and rip his left hook. Marciano wouldn't do that. Not because he's ****in' ******ed like people want to believe for some reason, Marciano could simply not step in and cross his feet and shuffle in like Joe but he didn't because it's not conducive to crowding which was far and wide his most important key to victory against Ezzard or anyone else who gave him trouble.

Rock's on you at a distance where Joe, regardless of him bigger doe, is still working his way in. Ali barely danced Frazier, that's true, but Ali has no example of how he deals with a man whose number one concern is just being in the pocket and punching. Joe's too much boxer for that, even when Joe needs a KO to win it isn't as if Joe loses all boxer, hit and don't be hit back, pretenses, he's still ****in' boxing away. Joe's not closing Rocky's distance, Joe's not keeping pressure on like Marciano, Joe has about as much in common with Marciano as Mayweather does Moore. It's a bit more than being a short power puncher. It's a bit more than working elbows.

Why? Oh it's a reason no golden era glorifier will ever admit to.

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and has to keep some level of self protection at all times and that's why he's easier for Ezzard than Marciano was. Ezzard can predict him, Ezzard can bait him, Ezzard can out move him, and Ezzard has the better cardio. Ezzard Charles just might whoop that ass.

So, no I'm not convince some poor knockoff of the Rock is gonna out do the man who split his nose and was closest to a guaranteed victory over Marciano. If Walcott hit him a little harder or did a little more maybe, if Moore could have stuck with him maybe, if Ezzard won the 8th definitely. Deserves a spot more respect in my opinion than for everyone to just say "Yeah Joe definately and beyond doubt wins that" I have my doubts.

 

What does the nose splitting have to do with it? "The Great Ezzard Charles," was not the version Marciano faced.imo.
It's entirely conceivable the prime version of Charles could beat Marciano.

 

My central point is you don't get that close then back off the danger and do worse. Charles did real well against Marciano and Marciano of the two is the more dangerous fighter imo because he's not concerned with his own well being.

I didn't bring up Marciano youse lot did. I don't believe prime outweighs a good performance or "If him were in him prime him woulda deffo done X" bs. You can tell me whenever you like is his prime, makes absolutely no difference, and all you really mean is when he was doing well not necessarily when he was at his best. If fighter X does great for five years then starts running into a younger crowd that gives him trouble, actually steps up his game, and still loses because it just wasn't enough improvement that man is out of prime even though he's a much better fighter than he was....Because prime is just another form of boxrec bull****.

Ezzard performed against a similar man and did quite well. If you take away the aspects that make Marciano dangerous and add some boxer to him you've taken what threatened Ezzard and added what didn't and telling me now he gets smoked....um, nope, not so sure about that. I think what you've done is evened up the fight even more. If Rock had any defensive hesitantion Ezzard was there to smack him. Joe is just that, Marciano if Marciano gave a damn about defense. Defense slows down the pace of fight, defense forces a weaker position and posture in favor of one that can get away or block, defense limits range, and defense is predictable. None of these things would have made Marciano whoop Ezzard even harder so I don't reckon Joe would either. I reckon Joe would struggle more if not lose in the same position Marciano was in. Against that Charles. Any other Charles doesn't matter because that fighter has even less to do with Joe or Marciano. What does Charles vs Brown Bomber have to do with Frazier? That's why I think on nose splitter Ezzard instead of "prime" Ezzard because Prime Ezzard is whatever I make up and fit logically with what took place. You can turn Ezzard into one of the greatests or just a guy who was pretty good, but you can't front on what he did to Rock or what Rock did to him.

 

The title of the thread is the" Great Ezzard Charles ,"hence my questioning of ,if he was prime for Marciano which I don't think he was.Charles was great as a light heavy not as a heavy ,imo. You say a fighters prime is just box rec BS you are entitled to that opinion I don't subscribe to it, a boxers best years are finite.imo The idea that Marciano disregarded defence is absurd to me.Rocky leaned to his right his right hand up to catch incoming. I think it perfectly reasonable to pick Charles to beat Frazier, but not for any of the reasons you have put forth.
Frazier was quicker of hand and foot and more elusive than Marciano, he also had 20lbs on Rocky and didnt have that propensity to cut . What lets Joe down in comparison to Marciano is he only possessed one handed power.
ps The split nose was caused by an elbow.

 

Nonsense talk from my point of view. I wouldn't be the first guy to claim Marciano is more of a bare knuckle era fighter in gloves than anything else so I know it's not that outlandish of a perspective. Yeah, of course the crouch offers extra defense but it is an offense first orientated posture. The defense is secondary to the added trajectory and loaded muscles it offers for a strike. It's primary focus is adding power not staying away from longer men. He uses the crouch to get inside with a punch in one movement not to sneak inside. So whatever, Joe can have his hand speed, he has to shuffle in and throw a hook while Marciano just wings a phantom overhead like they're candy from a greater distance away. Joe can hit people a step in front of him if a step is proper footwork where the feet don't cross and the lead foot steps first. Marciano launches from across the ring taking big steps that require his feet to cross to get there.

What you've done there is like saying Floyd rolls punches to the side because once rolled Floyd's posture is already loaded for a counter. Yes, it's true but also Floyd rolls punches first and foremost to not get hurt. Marciano crouches to hurt people, it offers a better juxtaposition against large men but once he started to crouch it's not like he ever stopped or changed it per size of the man he was fighting or that the crouch year coincide with him not coming forward constantly.

Basically the same thing as what this fella is calling Marciano's Gazelle Punch except I'm comparing Marciano's crouch to Joe's so I did kind of do the disservice of comparing a fully loaded right overhead to a step in left hook so i guess he's being more fair but the point is the same:

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Marciano can be the slower man and still get more punches in more quickly because he's not worried about defense. Why is it wrong to cross your feet? Is that an offensive reason? Of course it isn't. It's wrong when you're worried about defense. When you're worried about being hit while having your feet crossed and taking a KD that didn't actually hurt you it just pushed you over. When you want to take a man's face off it's absolutely the right thing to do. Marciano got hit loads while crossing his feet and it didn't matter because he was coming forward with a punch and not allowing his man to get full leverage by crowding.

I say Marciano is the more intense fighter.

 

Ezzard is paying chess and Joe is grabbing the board, knocking the pieces all over the place and throwing it against a wall. He simply won’t fight Charles’ fight and get into a chess match. He steamrolls Ezzard and stops him in 10 or less. Probably a still-standing TKO after a couple of knockdowns.