Who was the better heavyweight Tami Mauriello or Elmer a Ray?

Well, there is evidence Mauriello dodged a big showdown IN the garden with Elmer Ray.

I’ve also posted the ratings list from 1942-1946 which had 7 different black men hanging around the top 5 ratings, and Mauriello defeated none of them. Instead, he fought lower rated white men like oma, Savold..often multiple times. I mean some really good men who were black like Walcott, Thompson, Ray , Murray, Bobo, toles, all were rated highly..Mauriello didn’t fight any of these men


There is no doubt pre 1960, the heavyweights got the shaft time and time again. Louis only defended his title 3 times out of 25 against black men. Dempsey refused. Tunney, Schmeling, sharkey, carnera, baer...nope.

Is it a coincidence that after 1960 when black men regularly got title shots, they dominated the scene? I mean how many white heavyweight champions post marciano? How many pre?

Ray was definitely one of those elite talents that was ducked by many white men. Savold was one of the few top white men who got in the ring with him and lasted 2 rounds before being laid face first out cold in Newton. Ray proved in his victories over Charles and Walcott he was good enough to become heavyweight champion

Mauriello proved himself a decent, steady contender but he was nowhere near the level of Elmer Ray at his best

 

I have no argument with muariello as a light heavyweight. I
My argument is Elmer ray was a better heavyweight than Tami Mauriello

 

You make a case for Mauriello being a good fighter, but not for him being rated above Elmer Ray


Walcott had wins over Bivins, Oma, and Baksi, all of whom defeated Mauriello. Ray beat Walcott.

Charles easily beat Lesnevich in 7 rounds, whom defeated Mauriello 4 times. Ray defeated Charles.

Savold you say was a tough fighter in his prime, I agree. He gave Tami two very close fights. Ray disposed of him in 2 easy rounds

 

Mauriello went 0-8-1 against the 5 beat men he fought Lesnevich, Baksi , Louis Bivins and Pastor


The nezt best contenders of the era-mid 40s Walcott Murray Ray Thompson toles....mauriello failed to fight


After that you’re with savold Baksi oma...whom mauriello fought a bunch of times and went fought dead even with.

So that was mauriellos level. The savold oma Baksi level. Ray proved himself up that level by knocking out savold in 2 easy rounds. His victories over Walcott and Charles proves ray belongs closer to the Teir 1 level while mauriello was more Tier 3


Again the topic at hand who was the better heavyweight Mauriello or Ray?

 

Yeah that Savold Baksi oma level is right where mauriello belonged

He did not belong on the Walcott Charles level which Ray did


So

Tier 1 Louis Charles Walcott Ray Conn

Tier 2 Bivins Bettina Thompson Murray Lesnevich Pastor

Tier 3. Baksi Savold Oma Mauriello Woodcock

Fair?

 

Ahh offended by a little joke? I apologize but it was all in good faith. You came at me first with a personal attack and I only returned the favor. If you can’t take it, don’t fish it. But I was only joking Mcvey

You and I have a funny relationship. Usually every 6-8 months we get in some argument that leads to this. Let’s end it before it gets ugly

 

Here's some background on Ray:
In the years before he became a famous professional boxer, he rose to prominence in the southern battle royale circuit- battle royales being a fight game from that time period in which 10 competitors would be put into the ring with each other and have an "all-against-all" throw-down until only one was left. Ray won 61 battle royales and supposedly once knocked out nine opponents with one hand behind his back during a match in New Orleans, earning himself the title "King of the Battle Royale." According to the Traverse City Eagle, March 11, 1946,

"Ray had a system that let him win 61 of those free-for-alls. In these bouts, the usual order is for the little guys to gang up on the biggest man and down the batting order in that manner. Elmer simply dropped to the floor when the bell sounded, crawled to a corner, placed his back against the ropes and took the whole gang as it came at him."

Ray got his start in the battle royals and learned the hard way. He is said to have had his first experience with these battle royals down in Tampa, Florida. Elmer would work during the day and fight at night. In these free-for-all style fights he is said to have won 61 contests without ever losing and he had a strategy on how to do it.

Ray explained how he won these chaotic challenges, saying: “They’d have ten big negroes in the ring. They could have their best hand free, but the other was lashed to their belt behind their back. No blindfold. The reason I got along so well was that I learned to rush for a corner at the bell. I’d brace myself and let my Sunday punch go at the first fellow who came at me. In a corner, I could get better leverage. By the time I got two men stacked up under my feet, it was a cinch that the next one would stumble or lose his balance getting at me. When the field had thinned out I’d go out and take on a survivor or two. When the pack was narrowed down to two we’d get a few minutes rest and then go out and slug it to a finish.”

These types of fights were especially popular in the South and were often added to the cards to boost the fan’s interest. Ray only made $9 for these type of fights—basically a buck for each man that was knocked out. Many of these boxing cards would have these battle royals followed by a handful of undercard bouts and then the main event. Sometimes to add to the card they would have a women’s swimsuit contest and a buck dancing contest to help draw a larger fan base. It was a hard way to earn experience, but the battle royals gave Ray some popularity and helped kickstart his career. He might not have won a Golden Gloves championship fighting in these free-for-alls but there was no doubt he was the undisputed king of them.



He also had a reputation as an alligator wrestler. When he held camp near his home town in Florida, he would scare his manager to death by going out into the mud and wrestling 'gators, often to entertain tourists. In fact, he was so comfortable around them that he was known to casually play with them and let them eat out of his hand.

 

Here’s some info on Ray-Charles I

The United Press scorecard had it 5-4-1 for Ray

Here is the description from the Middlesboro Daily News account: "The gallery gods went into ranting hysterics last night when the burly negro who once wrestled alligators for a living smashed the myth which was Ezzard Charles. The boxing bigwigs, who had been grooming Charles for a fight with Joe Louis, laughed. Once more they had given Joe Louis, the heavyweight champion, an excuse to dodge the violent one. For from 10 rows back it looked like Charles all the way. He danced and jabbed and landed a lot on Ray's bobbing pate and Elmer's busy elbows. But inside 10 rows you could see the devastation wrought by Ray's jarring hooks, blasts which raised the sheaf of Ezzard's cheek. No holding was the continual admonition of referee Eddie Joseph. But Ezzard, of the winged retreating feet, had to hold for his life, and in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford."

According to the Nevada State Journal, "Ezzard had clicked off 15 straight victories since he received his discharge from the army 18 months ago, including nine knockouts, but he was unable to overcome his heavier and more experienced opponent, and he was unable to score a single knock-down against rugged Ray, who kept marching in, bobbing and weaving and throwing hooks to body and head. Although Ray admits to 31, which would make him at least five years older than his opponent, it was Ray who finished stronger in the 10th round and thereby apparently wrapped up the bout by a close margin."

 

Ray-Walcott I 1946

According to Sid Roth, "the Violent One, whom they had kept out of lucrative Madison Square Garden for so long, had a clear winning edge."

 

Ray- Thompson I

This was a No Contest, resulting from a low blow by Thompson that incapacitated Ray in round six of their match. Lookingthrough accounts of the match, it seems that Ray was apparently creaming Thompson before the NC and that Thompson actually threw two hard, flagrant low blows, one in the second and one in the sixth, possibly to bail himself out of trouble.

The Modesto Bee account, August 10th, 1943, reads, "Turkey Thompson still wore his crown today after a match with a tough Floridian named Elmer Ray, whopunched his better known opponent around the ring for six rounds only to have Referee Lee Ramage atop thebout with no decision after Ray had been fouled twice,"

according to the Fresno Bee Republican, "Ray had won all five rounds and was out in front in the sixth when he was hurt by a low blow and Ramage stopped the bout."

 

Thanks MF

Here's a snippet on O'Loughlin from the Traverse City Eagle, March 11th, 1946:

"Minneapolis Tommy O'Loughlin, manager of heavyweight Elmer (Violent) Ray, charged today that his boy wasn't given a "break" in New York because the Florida Negro “punches hard enough to shatter Mike Jacobs' monopoly at maul.” A dapper, black-haired Irishman, Minneapolis Tommy is trying to talk his way into a shot at any of the so-called "name" heavyweights. If it works, he is certain that the explosive punches of the Violent One will force Uncle Mike to match the re-christened Elmer with the winner of the Louis-Conn bout this summer...
...The handsome, fast-talking manager believes devoutly that if the one-time battle royal boy ever was given an opening he would march right through the ranks, including Louis.
All of which is a testimonial to O'Loughlin's managerial skill, for Ray was a gymnasium punching bag when Tommy picked him up. "I saw he could punch,” he said. "I'm partial to punchers, and Ray is one of the best ever." Elmer proved that a long time ago, in Florida's illegal Battle Royals where 10 men are put in the ring and the winner takes all."

O'Loughlin's money/influence/training apparently gave Ray quite a boost, as his record prior to meeting O'Loughlin, according to boxrec, was 7-7-1, and afterwards a brilliant 74-5, with two of those losses coming in his final two fights- he had a run of nine years with a 74-3 record, the only losses coming against Walcott, Charles and Thompson