Harry Greb V Robinson,Ketchel,Monzon,Hagler.?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jul 13, 2018.


  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would like to ignite a discussion on Greb, so I will just throw three things on the table for a reaction

    1-----Critics back in the old days said Greb was actually more impressive above the middleweights than he was at that weight. They seem to have a case. Here is his record against the best middles he faced:

    George Chip--two wins, one loss, one draw
    Mike Gibbons--one win, one loss
    Mike O'Dowd--one draw
    Tiger Flowers--one win, two losses

    Comes out to four wins, four losses, and two draws. These were top men of the time, but to extrapolate dominating the best middles of decades later? I could add he also lost to Tommy Gibbons when the two fought at middle. This might indicate a speedy opponent was his biggest problem, which wouldn't be good against Robinson, for certain.

    2-----beating bigger men. Most of the better "big" men he beat were light-heavies or pocket heavyweights. The biggest fairly good fighter he beat was I think Bill Brennan, probably in the 195 or so range. Mickey Walker has more impressive big men scalps in my judgment, with wins over Risko, Uzcudun, Levinsky, and Wright, plus a draw with Sharkey. Jack Dillon at 169 beating the 205 lb. Frank Moran also seems a more impressive beating a really big guy effort than any by Greb. Greb beat Tunney as a light-heavy, a tremendous achievement, but with not that extreme of a weight pull. Greb actually outweighed Loughran and Slattery in their fights.

    3-----great chin? How many top punchers was Greb really in against? Tunney is probably by far the best puncher he faced. Okay. Who else? He didn't fight Berlenbach who would have been an interesting test, nor Jack Delaney. Brennan? What top man did he knock out. Miske? Perhaps, but how big a puncher was he generally.

    Just asking to elicit responses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    one point 1 ) I think one of this losses to Flowers was highly questionable and that one happened when Greb was past his prime. I would say for sure that Mickey Walker should be in the group of the best middles Greb beat.

    on point 2 ) Sort of helps with point #3

    on point 3 ) Tunney was a light heavyweight who could punch. I don't think he floored Greb in the series, taking a punch at 160 is not an issue. Tommy Gibbons had some power, he lost to Greb
     
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    On Flowers, if you go to boxrec, Greb's win seems to have been very controversial also. It boils down to these men fought three times on equal footing. Their first fight was in 1924, and Flowers was only one year younger than Greb, so he was also in his thirties in 1926.

    Who was the best man Gibbons stopped other than old Norfolk? I think someone like Robinson would have been in another class as a puncher and certainly in his ability to put together combinations. Slipping five or six or more punches in a spurt might prove tougher than slipping a simple one-two.

    All four of these men might punch harder, I think, than any opponent Greb fought other than Tunney, plus Robinson for certain, and also Hagler, put their punches together better than anyone Greb fought. Greb himself is no threat to KO Robinson, Monzon, or Hagler in my judgment.

    Walker was a welter when he challenged Greb, and I think weighed 152 for their fight.

    Certainly Greb is a very great fighter, but so are these other men, especially the three from decades later. All did more at middle, I think, but didn't fight above that weight except for Robinson's challenge to Maxim, and that one hardly proved Robinson couldn't do well against bigger men.
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    This seems like a fair breakdown, with the caveat that, yeah, there's no film of Greb so it's hard to accurately predict the outcome. But based on who Greb beat, and how, I think he'd have an edge on even these guys. If I had to guess, Monzon might be the most awkward to handle.
     
  5. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    But we are talking prime for prime right? When Greb lost to Chip, Gibbons, and Flowers he was either pre prime or past his prime.

    It seems a strange argument to suggest that Dillon or Walker have more impressive wins against big men when Greb had more wins against HOF men weighing above 160 than either Dillon or Walker (probably combined but Id have to check on that).

    Its weird to suggest that Greb may not have fought many punchers in his 300 fights. The Chip brothers were both hellacious punchers, the lesser known of the brothers, Joe, who actually stopped Greb for his only knockout, was a good enough puncher that he was removed from active duty as Jess Willards sparring partner because he was making Willard look bad by repeatedly cracking him with left hooks. Mike Milko, at a lower level of course, was a huge puncher whose knockout record in the amateurs was legendary. He had something like 80 knockouts which was unheard of at that time. Willie KO Brennan, Frankie Brennan, Jeff Smith, Jack Dillon, Eddie McGoorty, Bill Brennan, Joe Borrell, Soldier Jones, Kid Norfolk, Tommy Gibbons, Gene Tunney, Lou Bogash, Mickey Walker, etc were all punchers of varying degrees, some hellaciously so. Some more were more skilled than others but this is a perfect example of the failings of boxrec and simply looking at statistics. Its a fact that in that era fighters, even punchers, had lower knockout percentages. The competition was better trained and fought at a higher level, fighters weren't as "creatively" matched then as they are today, and fighters fought more often meaning that if you risked a broken hand, finger, or knuckle you risked missing out a much needed payday. These guys were blue collar fighters, not the coddled millionaires of today. They needed to stay active to earn and as such they preserved their tools.

    Furthermore, it seems a strange double standard to question Greb's credentials against Hagler and Monzon by saying his resume at higher weights was lacking when both of those guys made their bones fighting smaller fighters coming up to middleweight (in Monzon's case they were past their prime to a man) and never once tested themselves above 160 as Greb did.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Except Walker was a welterweight then!lol
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Greb's resume is absolutely phenomenal!
     
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  8. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thank you for the polite reply. I am just trying to elicit info about Greb.

    On these "big" Hall of Famers, these seem to be the weights--If I missed a HoF'er, please correct me.

    1918 Greb (160)--Mike McTigue (158)
    1919 Greb (165)--Battling Levinsky (175)
    1922 Greb (164)--Tommy Gibbons (171)
    1922 Greb (162)--Gene Tunney (174 1/2)
    1922 Greb (167)--Tommy Loughran (164)
    1923 Greb (168)--Tommy Loughran (165)
    1923 Greb (166)--Tommy Loughran (166)
    1923 Greb (166)--Gene Tunney (174) L
    1923 Greb (168)--Tommy Loughran (168)
    1923 Greb (172)--Gene Tunney (175) L
    1923 Greb (168)--Tommy Loughran (169)
    1924 Greb (164)--Jimmy Slattery (163)
    1924 Greb (166)--Gene Tunney (175) D
    1924 Greb (168)--Tommy Loughran (168)
    1925 Greb--Maxie Rosenbloom no weight given, but Maxie in his next five fights weighed between 160 & 165.
    1917 Greb (165)--Jack Dillon (159)
    1918 Greb (150?)--Billy Miske (175) (Greb was weighing in the 160's fight after fight. This 150 seems a mistake)

    My point is that these top men are light-heavyweights (or modern super-middleweights) and Greb actually has weight pulls over several of these "bigger" men, somewhat like Jake LaMotta against bigger men Bob Satterfield and Lloyd Marshall who in fact weren't that much bigger when they fought Jake. This is certainly a very impressive list, but it is not like Greb is uniquely beating huge men. He was a super-middleweight who could sweat down to 160 taking on other super-middleweights and some light-heavyweights. I stick with Walker being more impressive against really big heavyweights.

    "pre-prime or past his prime"

    He lost to Tommy Gibbons when he was 26. But why not reverse the argument. His 1922 win over Tommy and his win over Mike came when the Gibbons' bros were in their thirties. Flowers was only one year younger. Certainly Loughran and Slattery and Rosenbloom among others could be considered green.

    As for the punchers you list, how many achieved a 50% KO ratio. That is quite common in the modern era. Monzon for example has at least three in Briscoe, Valdez, and Napoles. Hagler would do better.

    "It is a fact that in that era fighters, even punchers, had lower knockout percentages."

    But this is a circular argument. Perhaps punchers had lower KO percentages because they simply weren't as effective in combination punching.

    "The competition was better trained and fought at a higher level"

    But boxing was much more a world sport in the eras of Robinson, Monzon, and Hagler, w/o the color line. Your position is that the mostly white 1910's and 1920's actually had better competition?

    "coddled millionaires of today"

    But we are not comparing Greb to the fighters of today, but to Robinson, Monzon, and Hagler. Were they really coddled?

    "if you risked a broken hand, finger, or knuckle you missed a much needed payday."

    What are you arguing? Fighters fought so often that they were restrained from throwing their hardest punches for fear of hurting their hands? But this would make competition less dangerous, not more.

    Anyway, thanks again for the reply. Comparing fighterss across the decades is stimulating.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  9. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Tunneys weight is wrong for 1924. Grebs weight is wrong for the Miske fight in 1918.

    Two points: 1. We are talking about Greb vs Robinson, Monzon, and Hagler. Most of these guys are bigger (often much bigger) than those guys. So Im not sure what your point is in saying they arent really that big. 2. Only two of the guys on that list are below 160. The rest are all LHWs. Yes Greb could weigh in above 160 when he didnt have to make weight but the same can be said for literally every fighter in history. Greb made 159 in his final fight at a weigh in held the afternoon of the fight. Its not like he was some secret heavyweight. Furthermore, if you compare the record of his weights you will see he fought men much bigger than those listed here as well. So the idea that he wasnt giving up weight is odd. He gave up weight, often a lot of weight, routinely. When Floyd Mayweather had 3 or 4 pounds on Marquez people flipped out about the unfair advantage. It was nothing for Greb to give up 10. Thats beyond the fact that its somewhat deceptive that you chose to leave out fights like Norfolk 1, Levinsky 1, and several others against non HOFers where Greb was at a big disadvantage weight wise.

    Yes, Walkers record was impressive against big men but guess what, Greb whipped Walker too. So theres that. It doesnt change the fact that Greb beat more HOF big men than Walker.

    You could argue that Mike Gibbons was past his prime when they met the second time just as Greb was pre prime the first time. I would agree, Tommy, not so much. Tommy was on the best winning streak of his career in 1922 with something like 21 KOs in 22 fights. He was being groomed and considered as Dempseys best white challenger. Greb by this point was blind in one eye and considered to have lost half a step. Gibbons had every advantage going in.

    Flowers was a year younger but more importantly he hadnt been fighting nearly as long as Greb. He fought 23 fights after Grebs last bout and still finished with half of Grebs tally, he had nowhere near the wear and tear Greb did.

    You could argue that Loughran and Rosembloom in particular were pre prime and I wouldnt argue strenuously against that except to say Grebs body of work doesnt depend on those two names.

    The bottom line is you can gelieve what you want but I dont think Robinson, Monzon, or Hagler present Greb with anything he hadnt seen before. I think Robinsons issues with strong agressive durable fighters would spell his doom against Greb. I think Haglers indecisiveness against top opposition would cause him all kinds of problems with Greb. I think a guy who plays too tentative with Vito, Duran, and Leonard is going to fall way behind on points with Greb and isnt going to get a come from behind KO to pull it out. I think Monzon was used to picking and choosing euro trash and smaller, older fighters coming up. He avoided Valdez for a reason. He was great at using size against smaller guys who werent great at middleweightbut Greb fought guys taller, bigger and stronger than Monzon and was faster too boot. I dont see Carlos beating him. You listed 3 people on Monzons record that he fought who were punchers. Big deal, what does any of that have to do with Greb? Greb is going for points and Monzon wasnt going to stop him. You act like Monzon and Hagler were these monster punchers but they werent. At best they used an accumulation of punches and that typically came against guys several rungs below Greb in terms of greatness. If you think punchers were invented with color tv we can agree to disagree. If you think that somehow Greb missed out on fighting punchers in a 300 bout career of the deepest resume in history then I have some beach front property to sell you.
     
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Wasn't Greb also weight drained when he beat Walker?
     
  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    When he fought ODowd.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Oh okay thanks.
     
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks for the reply.

    "If you think punchers were invented with color tv"

    No, nor with the invention of talking movies, of which there weren't any while Greb was active. But a larger talent pool seems likely to produce more punchers. The migration of black talent from the rural South to the urban north combined with the fall of the color line I think produced a much deeper talent pool in the US. There was also the spreading of boxing around the globe. Greb fought in an era in which the boxing talent pool was mainly restricted to the USA and white areas of the British Empire. How many fighters did Greb meet who did not have English as their first language? Things were certainly different for Robinson, Monzon, and Hagler on these scores.

    "Greb's punchers"

    You first mentioned the Chips as hellacious punchers. Joe Chip recorded 16 KO's in 63 fights. George Chip scored 36 KO's in 162 fights. I think it certainly reasonable to rank Hagler, Monzon, and Robinson as better punchers than these men.

    "Size of opponents"

    This is an interesting issue. Does beating bigger men prove superiority if making a lighter weight? It is a question which deserves serious scrutiny.

    As an example, let's take one-time welter champion Young Corbett III. His middle and light-heavy champion victims include Ceferino Garcia, Mickey Walker, Lou Brouillard, Gus Lesnevich, Billy Conn, and Fred Apostoli. Two light-heavy champs here, but like Greb, the weight pulls weren't that huge, with both men really super-middles when Corbett beat them. But despite beating these relatively big guys, Corbett lost his welter title via a one round KO to Jimmy McLarnin, who was never more than a welter.

    An interesting side note on Corbett is that he beat Mickey Walker in 1934. Walker had fought Schmeling, drawn with Sharkey, and beaten Uzcudun, Risko, and Levinsky, all real heavies. His listed weight for Corbett in 1934 is 158 lbs. So Walker apparently could always make the middleweight limit even when he was fighting big heavyweights.

    And, my point about Walker and Dillon versus Greb is that their HEAVYWEIGHT efforts were more impressive than any Greb managed. I judge the best heavies when Greb fought them to be Brennan and Weinert. You certainly have a very valid point that Greb fought a lot of top flight light-heavies, and that Hagler, Monzon, and Robinson did not.

    Greb certainly met men who could punch, but name the men you rate as better punchers than let's say Henry Armstrong, Bennie Briscoe, or Tommy Hearns. One might make a case for Tunney, but I think it ends there.

    "Greb's losses were pre-prime or post-prime"

    But this is ducks and drakes with these three. I think one can make a good argument that neither Robinson, nor Monzon, nor Hagler, lost in their primes. Robinson was still 21 when he gave up 16 lbs. to lose to LaMotta, which he reversed five times. All his other losses were in his 30's. Monzon's last loss was at 22. Other than to Leonard, Hagler also never lost after 22.

    "I don't think Robinson, Monzon, or Hagler present Greb with anything he hadn't seen before."

    Interesting that Sugar Ray Robinson level fighters were bouncing around the middleweights in the Greb era. This is sort of like saying if a pitcher had faced left-handed batters, Ted Williams was nothing new, or if a football team has faced a right-handed quarterback, Tom Brady is nothing unusual. I think Robinson would have presented problems for Greb he never faced. Wouldn't mean he might not have won, but this is certainly not obvious. What fighter did Greb face with the power and speed and combinations of Robinson?

    The same to a lesser extent is true of Hagler and Monzon. Greb might have faced somebody like them, but not with the same level of talent, with the possible exception of Tunney.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  14. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    If thats your opinion thats fine. Im not here to change your mind. I think it takes some mental gymnastics to reach but thats fine. For instance, claiming Tunney MIGHT be the only guy that Greb faced who could hit as hard as natural lightweight Henry Armstrong... well, I got a kick out of that. And yes, you could make the argument that Monzon, Hagler, and Robinson didnt lose in their prime but they also didnt fight a middleweight as good as Greb in their prime. Monzon didnt even come close. Neither did they challenge themselves to the degree Greb did in his prime. If Robinson was past his prime at 30 when he lost to the merely decent Turpin then he had a short prime. He may have been fighting above his best weight but not past his prime, but that plays into my argument that middleweight Greb who easily handled heavyweights might have been a bridge too far for a guy who got worn out and stopped by light punching octopus Maxim so you cant admit that argument without giving ground.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  15. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    How do you think a bout between Greb and Andre Ward at 168 would go? Who wins, and why?