Would modern Deontay Wilder be too small for the 80s/90s HW divison?

The U.S. Testing company (Rocky Marciano), sports scientist have worked with fighters, USOC has tested power mechanics using the latest technology, companies like UFC even pay for this science http://strike-research.org/ and so on and so on physics has been applied over and over the scientific community does not do research unless there is money generally from grants or donations.....bud. If you are telling me no one has ventured to understand it I have to wonder where how long you have been around the sport given the sheer amount of interest there is from the sports science community. Again if it is your job bud then I would assume you are aware of the sheer mathematics involved in the combinations of circumstances that must be presented from every factor of the equation. From the top of the head and all the variations and genetic anatomical makeup of every fighter right down to the toes, psychological factors both external and internal, There are no 2 fist identical and even the genetic clone of a man the identical twin will be slightly different unless they eat the exact diet at te exact times and do everything identical their will be variations.

But since you have decided the rest of the posters here other than yourself have no idea of the testing that came about to measure force of a punch the U.S. testing company measure forced applied of Rocky Marciano and came to the conclusion his punch produces equal kinetic energy to a armor piercing bullet this has been the standard to measure force applied by extrapolating the pounds per square inch of the impact of a punch the issue is........machines are not live subjects. This has grown as one scientist stands on the research of another to further the dissertation proposed that stands until disproved by evidence and accepted or rejected by scholars in the field.....you would think that with the sheer amount of money Mike Tyson generated with the sensational KO's he produced that promoters would be dumping money into the research if it was that simple but it isn't.

I think the question we all have after reading your responses and your claim of your profession as a scientific nerd then why don't you do it? if you crack the nut their is a pot of gold waiting for you I am certain

 

Not a matter of size but in that specific era he get punnished for not being skillful enough. Mcall, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Ruddock, Frank Bruno, George Foreman, Shannon.

That was the best era in heavyweight boxing, so many good fighters.

 

Wilder's a glass jawed joke, a complete FRAUD. ANY decent fighter from a prior era destroys him. In 35 years of boxing I've never seen a fighter fight stiffs for longer, and there's a reason for this!

 

You mean would he be too light?

How could he be too small with his height and reach?

He wouldn't be too small, and his confidence to let his hands go would be very dangerous with his huge power.

If he came unstuck, it would be down to his skill set, not his size.

 

Bud, if I naturally can do a backflip, no training, never tried it, just give it a go and jango I find I can to it. Does that mean how I do said backflip can't be explained because I just did it and didn't follow the backflipping rules?

A natural ability doesn't equate to magic powers. It just means you happen to do it right without the aid of any additional influences.

Here I focus on fist because fist is where all the magic happens, how big is their thigh and how much energy does it produce? Does not matter if it don't get to the fist right? Alrighty, so all of the physicality of a fight can be measured in their fist. You kind of already know that because you know fighters put their weight into their fist. So maybe I don't word it properly, but, the fist is where everything happens by science terms and in boxing terms. Explosiveness? Maybe, but I'd not venture a guess without more info. Explosiveness would be measured at impact just as much as a punch that's more of a push. If explosiveness transfers any more energy than other aspects then yeah I'd cosign explosiveness however it itself isn't the explanation for how a pushing punch can KO a man. What goes on at their fist can. How can a man be hurt just as much by a push with a closed fist as they can a snapping blow? Well, they must share something in the energy transfer. Obviously the energy development is very different. A snapping punch would carry power while a pushing punch carries force, both of these are energy, how that power or force is transferred and dealt with by the body being attacked it your answer. It can be measured, it wouldn't even be all that hard.

There is something measurable going on in fists that deliver more energy than the average. You can find it in their fist, trace it back, and explain it. Doesn't matter if Dempsey is very different from Wilder up to the point of impact because it all boils down to the same. Either you can transfer for energy than most or you can't. How you get there is no issue to me as long as you get there.

If I do a backflip without training you can explain it regardless of how differently I get it done from all the well trained gymnasts. If you close lights with a jab and your buddy does it with a smack I can explain what he did to make his open hand transfer as much energy as your closed. It ain't exactly high level science.

 

I never said it was magic, I don't even think it's that mysterious, it's to do with how you're neurally wired, some people can get more fibers to quickly contract. And some people just have better awareness of how to put more of their weight in etc., which is something you can improve more, and learn. People have analysed te movements of people like Dempsey and Wilder and shown how some of the clumsy movements is helping put more weight into punches. Dempsey even wrote a book on it.

 

Sport science? You're serious? I mentioned Marciano then I compared him to what came after. Sport science is nothing but public relations at best and a scam at worst. They don't even give me usable SI. Not just improper SI, unusable SI. SI that went converting will give you a number but not the truth. Marciano's is the only one I've ever ever heard of that was done properly. Let me tell you a secret. You see all those devices and electronics? Real science doesn't use all that. Heisenberg and all. It's impressive for normal folk but all it does is muddy up the figures. You do not need an impact sensor to measure impact and in fact impact sensors are going to give you bad readings. That's mythbuster BS.

As far as dumping money into research, measuring Tyson would be in a vacuum just like Marciano is. You need profiles, you need industry support not just some random I reckon I might see what I can get on the old pendulum.

Finally no, I have to stress this, it wouldn't be any harder than doing muzzle energy for firearms. That's basically all I'm saying needs to get done. In firearms all are tested, measured, and classified. I don't measure how many grams of what explosive, I don't care about the shape of the bullet, none of those other factors like body shape etc matter in the test needed to figure out why some punches transfer more energy than others. Impact and energy transfer is all that actually matters. Plenty of calibers hit harder than other calibers given a bullet, I don't look at the caliber and say "Oh a 45 that'll be around 500ftlbs" Sometimes yes, sometime you get a bullet with no more energy behind it that a 22. Just like you don't look at muscles and say "yeah he can punch" Maybe, maybe he just throws floppy smacks. Same difference, just like there is no looking at muscles to find power none of the physicality of a fighter is going to define or negate it beyond the fist. Nothing about a gun is going to add or take away power from a bullet hitting it's target. The input has been long over and now is time for output.

 

I mentioned Dempsey's book. Yes, I agree with Dempsey. I said before all this got hot that if you've read Dempsey's book all I'm doing in explaining the same ideas in my own terms. I don't remember Jack's terms outside of powerline. Powerline = Kinematic Chain.

As far as neurology goes, no. Just flatly no, you're looking at the wrong thing entirely. It's a matter of physics. Nothing in your brain can help you with that. Just like I told the last fella, firearms are very different too, doesn't change my tests for muzzle energy is the least. Nothing they do matters before impact or after impact, what goes on at impact is, and I mean this as an absolute is not something I think might me, all that matters.

So Jack looks a little different from Deontay just like how a Colt 45 doesn't look like a 500 Mag. Doesn't change the fact that CorBon 500 rounds hit at 954 while Buffalo Bore hits at 959. They don't shoot the same bullet, they don't share mechanisms, they don't have the same amount of explosive to bullet ratio in their shells, they are very different guns that shoot differently using different rounds flying at different velocities to end with damn near the same practical energy. What happens at impact is all that matters and what defines a KO punch from a punch.

 

I disagree. The neural aspects certainly matter, that's what's going to put the speed in in the first place, and it's going to matter in terms of not losing energy on impact (with you own arm absorbing the impact instead of the guy you're hitting).

 

Speed doesn't necessarily answer anything, and kinematic chains take care of absorption.

Your mindset isn't going to make an impure powerline pure and it's not going to make a pure one impure. Either the kinematic links, sorry dunno Jack's term for that, are in line like a newton's cradle or they are not. Any link out of alignment and your chain is impure, that link absorbs energy. I reckon it's why Joshua has a stamina problem. A pure chain from foot to knuckle has no place for the energy to absorb, rather like a wall, basically you've formed a wall for their face to run into as much as you've struck them with your fist because of equal opposite. So with a pure powerline or kinematic chain the energy goes from foot to knuckle, disperses, rebounds, and disperses again. Their body absorbs the vast majority of the energy. Like if you take a newton's cradle and start it like normal but don't allow the last ball to move, hold her solid, what happens? A crash of balls and a bounce right? Ok now do the same thing but this time after the first ball starts the chain grab it and hold it so the other half eats it's own rebound. What neurological links exist between these balls? You can start a reaction and control where that reaction energy flows without knowing anything about what you are doing.


Maybe we're talking about two different things here but I just can't see how you can assume neurology has any bearing on physics. Maybe you mean to say someone without the heart to hurt people wouldn't put in the energy or carry the form in the first place? That wouldn't matter, we're not interested in why half assed punches are half assed. We all know the answer to that. Whether there's a neurological link between all punchers wouldn't help you understand the physics of their punches. It may help you explain why some people appear to mimic those physics, but it doesn't explain the physics themselves. I think we can all take for granted everyone who KOs people has some neurological link, but that just explains the mind of a killer not how the killer kills. Not really my bag. I mean I'd be interested in that study, but it's not anything I can speak to.

 

It's not about mindset, it's much more about neural intervention into the muscles, it allows more of the fibers to contract at once in some people. Like I said it similar with sprinters sprinters, whos feet are on the. Mindset isn't going to turn a 16 second 100m sprinter into a sub 10 second 100m sprinter, in fact nothing we know of ever rally will, not even PEDs. It's not really about the brain AFAIK, it's much more about the peripheral nervous system, if you're not "wired" to be able to contract as many muscle fibers, you're not going to be able to punch as hard, it doesn't matter about your mind. The natural explosiveness isn't the only part, we both agree in the importance of technique in putting your weight into it, but even with the same technique, some people just hit harder, and I think that's why.

 

Yes I see, but again I have to say that would be found in the fist at impact. It's like speed, might be how this particular fighter gets to X but how he specifically gets to X isn't as valueable as how all people get to X. I don't mean all people as in one defining attribute I mean it as all the various forms men take to achieve X. Like i've said, can't beat this drum enough, it's all about how the fist transfers energy.

I doubt it anything particularly special to be honest because to take this back to runners how many different shapes do runners take up? Fat people don't run, short people are no good, etc. Punchers come in all shapes and sizes, it is something more universal than running in many ways.



Here something a bit unrelated but I reckon you'd find interesting. A man can be KO'd by the frequency. Goes back to armor days and such. Not just my medical speaking here boxing does agree it's just difficult to find it. Swordplay and halfswording will be easier to find but that's of course sword stuff not boxing. Anyway my point is as incredible as it sounds not even energy itself is the end-all for achieving a KO. I'm not proposing finding one physical link in the men because of that sort of nonsense. It's a minefield and you'd be chasing your own ass for a lifetime, but what happens on impact can tell you exactly what bines them all and whether or not that is a trainable element.

 

Being fat messes up running for obvious reasons. But being short not so much, for marathons, unless you are really extreme, like well under 5 foot, being short is fine, there is an optimum people have found analysing stuff which is shorter than average. Back to sprinting, being short helps the start and hinders top speed. Bolt is tall and you see that play out. Look at the all time top 25

1. Usain Bolt 6' 5"
2. Tyson Gay 5' 10"
2. Yohan Blake 5' 11"
4. Asafa Powell 6' 3"
5. Justin Gatlin 6' 1"
6. Nesta Carter 5' 7"
7 Maurice Greene 5' 9"
8 Steve Mullings 5' 9"
9. Richard Thompson 6' 2"
9. Christian Coleman 5' 8.5"
11. Donovan Bailey 6' 1"
11. Bruny Surin 5' 11"
11. Trayvon Bromell 5' 8"
14. Leroy Burrell 6' 0"
14. Olusoji Fasuba 5' 9"
14. Mike Rodgers 5' 7"
17. Carl Lewis 6' 2"
17. Frankie Fredericks 5' 11"
17. Ato Boldon 5' 9"
17. Francis Obikwelu 6' 5"
17. Keston Bledman 6' 0"
17. Jimmy Vicaut 6' 0"
23. Linford Christie 6' 2"
23. Obadele Thompson 5' 9"
25. Shawn Crawford 5' 11"
25. Walter Dix 5' 9"
25. Ryan Bailey 6' 4"
25. Michael Frater 5' 7"
25. Noah Lyles 5' 11"
25. Ronnie Baker 5' 10" (?)

Edit: Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce also got the 4th best female time at 5' 0"

Remember that's just the people who ran the 25 best times recorded, you'd expect more variation beyond that, and you could still be freakishly quick and a good bit off that list.

I would agree sprinting requires a much more specific body than punching hard, then again we are looking at successful boxers who punch hard. If we had contests of purely who can punch hard, I suspect we'd see the emergince of a more dominant body. If instead of looking at dedicated sprinters, you looked at something more similar, like soccer players known for being able to sprint fast, I wonder if there'd be more variation.

Do you mean a lot of hits that aren't that much on their own, but hitting more often than the opponent can recover?

 

That is almost exactly what I mean to say. I suspect I can find a whole lot more similarities if given more tools than video evidence than just they're born with it. Physical ones that don't require a whole mess of complicated tests just a good bank of profiles to analyze. I'm very sure much of what a hard puncher does intuitively that other fighters don't do can be measured and taught.

Neither, sorry bud I should have been clear on that. I mean specific rate of oscillatory and vibratory phenomena. Um, like hertz, radio waves etc?

I'll give you the easiest and quickest explanation I can: Think of like a bell. What happens to a human when you stick their head in a bell and ring it? Outside of making them a def ******* it has an effect on the brain. It can cause anything from dizziness and nausea to unconsciousness and even death. Well, that's the easy way to deliver a whole mess of frequencies into a brain.