The fine line of greatness.

ETM · Jul 29, 2018

robert ungurean said: ↑

All you have to do is watch Toney when he was switched on and you'll see his skill set was great and he was great in certain fights. It's his laziness that prevents him to be included by many but you cannot deny how skilled he was. Roach always said he was the best fighter he ever trained.
James at his best was a great fighter. Hes another guy that gets massively trashed on here.
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Yea I acknowledged that. Don't hold the Jones fight against him not losing but he was totally dominated. That was what should have been his prime

ETM · Jul 29, 2018

Combatesdeboxeo_ said: ↑

Toney was better than camacho without a doubt . he was the youngest mw champ in history a great fighter
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Disagree.
If you watch Camacho in his years at 130 you'll never see a faster fighter. He was fighting then. He was throwing blinding flurries He was unbelievable. Toney had his ups and downs. Losing to Tiberi, draw with Regggie Johnson He was never really dominant. Hector should rank above IMO.

he grant · Jul 29, 2018

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

So somebody can be a great head to head fighter without proving it by his record?
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Maybe they have moments of greatness but cannot maintains it .. More the a one off like Buster but say a James Toney .. to me he was a great fighter .. KO'ed Nunn who at the time was a great fighter .. if you watch that fight the story that it was a one punch thing is wrong .. he was coming on over rounds .. Qwai was for a short run a great light heavyweight. Certainly H2H they proved enough to me to be terrific competitors with most .

GoldenHulk · Jul 29, 2018

What about Nino Benvenuti? He seems to be right on that fine line.

SuzieQ49 · Jul 29, 2018

he grant said: ↑

Maybe they have moments of greatness but cannot maintains it .. More the a one off like Buster but say a James Toney .. to me he was a great fighter .. KO'ed Nunn who at the time was a great fighter .. if you watch that fight the story that it was a one punch thing is wrong .. he was coming on over rounds .. Qwai was for a short run a great light heavyweight. Certainly H2H they proved enough to me to be terrific competitors with most .
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Agreed. Do you think Toney was great head to head above 160?

PernellSweetPea · Jul 29, 2018

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Agreed. Do you think Toney was great head to head above 160?
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I have a hard time seeing James Toney as an all time great. He was just under that. If you match him with the best at anyone's best weight, he would probably lose to all. He had a great chin and a great win against Nunn, and how many fights 85 -90 fights in his career and his win over Charles Williams and Iran Barkley was great.

ETM · Jul 29, 2018

Felix Trinidad?

Good topic. When you guys are determining yes or no on a fighter what is your criteria for 'great'?

JohnThomas1 · Jul 29, 2018

Saad54 said: ↑

Benitez definitely a great.
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I wholeheartedly agree and was keen to see who might not have thought so.

mcvey · Jul 29, 2018

Contro said: ↑

I would comfortably describe quite a few of those guys as great beyond a doubt.
Toney, McCallum, benitez and Qawi for example.
Maybe Patterson and Buchanan too.
But that's just my opinion.

I struggle to find Bowe and Norton great because they both get too high of a % of their legacy from a single name.

And their second best win is just too far behind possibly implying that that that one name was at a fortunate time(aka fluke) or just a fortunate, rare style match up and that they couldn't replicate that kind of performance vs an opponent that good with a different style.

Norton did do really well vs Holmes but he Has those blow out losses and if you fail almost every single time you face a certain style or attribute(especially one which is kind of common like punching ability at HW) how great can you really be?

Bowe didn't face any dangeroud big bangers either!
Howcan you end up not facing any dangerous Punchers in THAT era??
Morrison Mercer Tyson Lewis Ruddock Foreman Moorer Bruno Smith or even alex steward how did he not end up fighting atleast one of them??
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Jorge Gonzalez?

JohnThomas1 · Jul 29, 2018

Jel said: ↑

No, I wasn't suggesting Norton was comparable to Lewis in achievement, just that those devastating KO defeats are hard to ignore. Sure, Lewis avenged both his KO losses but he had the opportunity to, so circumstances played a big part. That doesn't seem to have affected the way people rate Lewis at all. Personally, I think it reflects badly on him but fair enough that other people don't think it does. That was the only point of comparison.

If we're judging Norton on his wins only, then he's a nearly great - good enough to beat an all-time great in Ali and arguably get the better of him in a best of three series regardless of what the judges thought. He beat Jimmy Young and Jerry Quarry but those wins alone are not enough to propel him to greatness.

His biggest fights (Ali and Holmes) ultimately ended in defeat. Had he got the nod against Holmes or Ali in the third fight he probably would be a great. Or had he met Joe Frazier, that might have been another opportunity to prove his greatness. As it is, he was only a very good (and possibly unlucky) fighter.
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Thanks for expanding Jel. I don't think Lewis is unaffected by the losses for those of us rating him highly but he did so much around those two losses he can still garner a high rating. Yes maybe he was a bit lucky having the chance to avenge but he put himself in the position to do so.

Your comments on Norton are solid for me. I basically sit exactly where you do. He's a smidge short tho i wouldn't be outraged if someone slipped him in there.

JohnThomas1 · Jul 29, 2018

he grant said: ↑

Hell of a well chosen selection ..

For me McCallum , Benitez and Pryor were surely great. Toney and Qwai too .. many others skirted the edge.
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Thanks and i appreciate your insights.

JohnThomas1 · Jul 29, 2018

Combatesdeboxeo_ said: ↑

I have no problem with anybody who rates norton as great because he did beat Ali the most of times , and did beat very good fighters from a great era.he was past his prime and gave prime holmes everything he could handle.
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I was almost going to slip Ronny Lyle in there for you Boxeo.

Combatesdeboxeo_ · Jul 30, 2018

ETM said: ↑

Disagree.
If you watch Camacho in his years at 130 you'll never see a faster fighter. He was fighting then. He was throwing blinding flurries He was unbelievable. Toney had his ups and downs. Losing to Tiberi, draw with Regggie Johnson He was never really dominant. Hector should rank above IMO.
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He did not lose to tiberi,then Ali lost to jimmy young and 3 times against Norton

PernellSweetPea · Jul 30, 2018

ETM said: ↑

Felix Trinidad?

Good topic. When you guys are determining yes or no on a fighter what is your criteria for 'great'?
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My criteria was always beating other greats. Mikey Garcia looks good with titles but he is not beating anyone great. It is making boxing look like a joke. He is not that good. Hand picking and winning titles at the right time? I think a guy who was great was Ray Leonard. He lacks longevity but his wins were what defines a great. A few factors. Tito Trinidad? I suppose a great is someone who can fight anyone in any era and make it competitive and possibly win. Tito vs. Hagler. I don't see a win. Tito vs. Hearns or McCallum.Probably not. Vs. Leonard at welterweight?

he grant · Jul 30, 2018

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Thanks and i appreciate your insights.
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Back at you JT .. always have.

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