The fine line of greatness.

No one has mentioned De La Hoya. Surely wins over Chavez, Whitaker, and Camacho should put him into the conversation at least. Fought nearly every "name" there was....of course he lost many of them (Mosley 2x, Hopkins, Pacman). I can't consider the Trinidad looks a dire blemish on his record.

 

I think most of the discussion is on the original list not so much naming people... but it's a good call none the less

 

Btw... I think it's silly to even discuss whether Toney was great. To me, it's so beyond obvious. He fought great competition and won some, so that's a check. Most importantly to me at least, he's awesome for my eye test. Great. The argument on his lack of dedication is irrelevant, even if so, he still did all that?

 

He was capable of greatness he just didn't achieve it. That doesn't do it for me.
We may have a different standard of what a great fighter looks like. He did fight lose to some good fighters but also struggled with lesser ones in what should of been his prime. Toney left way too much on the table IMO.

 

He is an established all time great. For sure.

 

For me, Toney and Benitez are definitely great. McCallum and Rodriguez are as close to great as is possible without actually being great.

 

Good 'on the fulcrum' list. Most with an argument, in their own way - with some a good deal more than others.

The only names that stood out for me, as having clearly strong arguments for being 'Greats', are Benitez, McCallum and Rodriguez. The rest are debatable, although I hazard that a few could perhaps be kicked out of the discussion fairly easily.

 

What do you mean didn't achieve it? He has solid wins over fighters from MW to HW.. He beat top names like Nunn and McCallum(multiple times), you don't beat those two without being great. Yes, he left something on table and dedication wasn't his thing, and yet, he was still able to accomplish all he did. That to me speaks volumes about his greatness.

 

Want to highlight something, you stated: My criteria was always beating other greats.
You named Ray, but added this: He lacks longevity.

Question; Why isn't longevity a part of what makes greatness for you? Not disagreeing, just curious.

 

Orlando Canizales comes to mind. Another guy who got caught in an era not too hot. I'd agree with most of @McGrain rating. Not all, but most!

 

It is important, but not the most important thing. I think the main factor which would be to me 75 percent is which greats did you beat..on longevity? It is a factor.

 

Greatness isn't precisely quantifiable. A list of results - whether good or bad - can be qualitatively appraised based on the context of the individual fights.

How does one adjudge the quality of a win? Are there other factors that can be taken into consideration for evaluating that result? How credible are those factors and how much weight do they carry?

On the flip-side of that coin, how does one measure the severity of a loss? Conversely, again, can kudos be gained from a losing effort?

Even the use of ratings isn't clear-cut. The value of ratings, with the appropriate reasoning, can be challenged. This is particularly applicable to pound-for-pound ratings, so arbitrary are these nuggets of recognition.

The worth of 'longevity' and 'dominance' is subject to all of the above assessments and more. Today's alphabet title and trinket maze, means the path a boxer can take their career is manifold; collecting a fine-looking list of 'W's along the way. For this reason, I think it is important that the career as a whole is dissected and examined, where appropriate.

Ultimately, we should be able to synthesize various viewpoints, from all of the available information and analysis, so that we can evaluate fairly and be able to articulate the same. Even then - there will be challenges. That 's just the nature of opinion and debate.

 

I say greatness can't be gauged or measured. I think two ways of saying the same thing, if, so, I agree with your assessment.

 

I think Benitez is great.. The highest for me of the four. Mike? borderline. Lacks the iconic fights.. He was top notch, and I always loved his win over Curry and he beat some diverse fights with different styles. The Watson fight was great, and he was older then. Broke Watson up.